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[Hammer Man]

Hello everyone.  I hope I have posted this in the correct section and if I haven't I appologise (Could a moderator please move it to the right place?)  I have always liked boats and today I was given a model sailing yacht.  I've just measured it and its 2 meters long!  The mast is 1.85 meters.  The thing is, I have never seen let alone owned one before and have no idea how to restore it or indeed how to use it.  Does anyone know what this boat is and how I would start!?  The rudder is damaged (see picture) and there is lots of little fittings on the deck which are all a mystery to me!  Please be gentle, I don't even know the names of parts so I really have no idea!

Here it is!

The Hull






The Broken Rudder (repairable?)   









Big heavy thing!





Two (rather large!) Sails




The Deck






Broken thing




Turning bit



Bit in the middle?




Hoop at the front



Whats this bit for?!

[dougal99]

Hi Hammer Man,

I don't know what class of yacht this is but from the fittings you've shown it appears to have been designed for vane steering. That is not radio control.

I'm no expert on vane steering but essentially a vane was a vertical surface shaped somewhat like a feather. This was mounted on a pivot which was attached to the rudder. The whole assembly was kept in position by a spring arrangement (probably an elastic band). The vane could be set at a desired angle to the course of the boat and if the boat turned the wind would push on the vane which would turn the rudder, thus turning the boat. With practice and skill the skipper could thus get his boat to sail a predetermined staright course.

I hope this is clear.

Cheers

Doug

[Hammer Man]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for your reply.  It all sounds awefully complicated! haha!  At least I now know that it is not remote controlled as I had thought.  Is it possible to buy replacement parts for these kinds of boats?  It doesn't help that I don't know the names of the parts so am unable to search on the interweb!  I'm guesing this is an old boat by looking at it, the man who gave me it didn't know a lot about it.

Thanks again for your help,

James.

[dougal99]

James

Glad to shed some light for you. I do not know what's available but these people will if anybody does

http://www.vmyg.org.uk/

I suggest a browse round the site and possible contact if you find it useful.

All the best

Doug

[Hammer Man]

Doug,

Thank you very much indeed, I am having a look around the site now and I think I will send them some pictures of my boat and see what they say.  It invites you to send in pictures for identification.

I hope I manage to get it sailing!

Thanks again,

James.

[MikeK]

Hi James

From the long lean look of her I would guess a vane ten rater. The broken bit is the jib rack and the mystery bit looks like another part of the vane steering gear, the broken rudder part is the skeg which is a sort of fin sticking down in front of the rudder, which would be attached to the brass tubing at the back - but I'm sure the Vintage Yacht Club will be able to help you
Best of luck with the rebuild - nothing like jumping in at the deep end    - Good idea if you can find a nearby model boat club, especially a yacht club, who will doubtless provide you with a great deal of help.

regards

Mike

[MikeK]

Regarding finding a nearby club this might guide you   http://www.mya-uk.org.uk/contacts.html 


Mike

[andrewh]

Hi, Hammer man,
Welcome to Mayhem and the exotoc world of model boats

You will find the water here warm and balmy, and the people warm and individualistic, and ready to help at the drop of a question, or even when you have not asked!

I think you said that your are in Rutland - doesn't the hull poke out into a neighbouring county?  I'm in Leicester and able to help as much as I can - my first similar experience was being given a (still unidentified)  marblehead hull to rebuild for a friend.

as received

as delivered back

Lovely boat, quite staggeringly lovely  Not a little extreme, will look a picture on the water!
I'm sure the combined Mayhem resource will unearth the origin, moulder and probably the builder's boot size before long - but meanwhile:

The bit broken is the rudder skeg -  the fixed bit on which the rudder pivots.  It can certainly be repaired, or replaced - or possibly removed!  Modern thinking is a deep but elegant blade rudder which does not need a skeg - the boat will turn better, but be less stable in a straight line
The gear looks tarnished, and some of the bits a little damaged - all of them can be repaired or replaced if necessary
http://www.housemartinsails.co.uk/
and
http://www.sailsetc.com/

It is, as MikeK has said,  arranged for vane steering but the hull looks very swoopy - much more modern that I would expect for vane steerring.  The VMYG (Russell Potts) may be able to help, or there may be a 10-rater association who can chip in.

What do you hope to do with her?
What is she made of - fibreglass or wood?  Could you face making an access hatch in the deck? She would make a beautiful radio-controlled yacht for summer evenings (rutland water?)  You could fit sails and mast  from a Marblehead (or even a 10-rater) and she would look tall and wonderful - pic of marblehead to follow - I got all the bits I needed, and lots of help from Housemartin sails, and lots more help from Sailsetc (Graham Bantock)  Btw my suit of sails cost £10.00 secondhand!

Sorry about the inquisition - just fascinated
andrew

[Hammer Man]

Hi James

From the long lean look of her I would guess a vane ten rater. The broken bit is the jib rack and the mystery bit looks like another part of the vane steering gear, the broken rudder part is the skeg which is a sort of fin sticking down in front of the rudder, which would be attached to the brass tubing at the back - but I'm sure the Vintage Yacht Club will be able to help you
Best of luck with the rebuild - nothing like jumping in at the deep end    - Good idea if you can find a nearby model boat club, especially a yacht club, who will doubtless provide you with a great deal of help.

regards

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply.  Its nice to be learning what the parts are called!  I recieved a reply from Russell Potts of the Vintage Yacht Club and he said the same as you -  Vane 10-rater.  Doesn't mean a lot to me at the moment but I'm gradually getting some idea through reading all of your kind replies and also trawling the internet! 

As for jumping in at the deep end,  I didn't realise I had!     I couldn't turn this boat down though!  Not an offer I'm likely to receive again eh!  I love it and really hope to get it in the water!

James.

Regarding finding a nearby club this might guide you   http://www.mya-uk.org.uk/contacts.html 


Mike

Thank you very much, another one to add to favourites!  So many links being given to me - you are all saving me searching in the wrong places!

James.

Hi, Hammer man,
Welcome to Mayhem and the exotoc world of model boats

You will find the water here warm and balmy, and the people warm and individualistic, and ready to help at the drop of a question, or even when you have not asked!

I think you said that your are in Rutland - doesn't the hull poke out into a neighbouring county?  I'm in Leicester and able to help as much as I can - my first similar experience was being given a (still unidentified)  marblehead hull to rebuild for a friend.

as received

as delivered back

Lovely boat, quite staggeringly lovely   Not a little extreme, will look a picture on the water!
I'm sure the combined Mayhem resource will unearth the origin, moulder and probably the builder's boot size before long - but meanwhile:

The bit broken is the rudder skeg -  the fixed bit on which the rudder pivots.  It can certainly be repaired, or replaced - or possibly removed!  Modern thinking is a deep but elegant blade rudder which does not need a skeg - the boat will turn better, but be less stable in a straight line
The gear looks tarnished, and some of the bits a little damaged - all of them can be repaired or replaced if necessary
http://www.housemartinsails.co.uk/
and
http://www.sailsetc.com/

It is, as MikeK has said,  arranged for vane steering but the hull looks very swoopy - much more modern that I would expect for vane steerring.  The VMYG (Russell Potts) may be able to help, or there may be a 10-rater association who can chip in.

What do you hope to do with her?
What is she made of - fibreglass or wood?  Could you face making an access hatch in the deck? She would make a beautiful radio-controlled yacht for summer evenings (rutland water?)  You could fit sails and mast  from a Marblehead (or even a 10-rater) and she would look tall and wonderful - pic of marblehead to follow - I got all the bits I needed, and lots of help from Housemartin sails, and lots more help from Sailsetc (Graham Bantock)  Btw my suit of sails cost £10.00 secondhand!

Sorry about the inquisition - just fascinated
andrew

Hello Andrew,

No need to appologise about the inquisition - I'm as fascinated as the rest of you!! ho ho!

The hull is completely made of wood (ply?)  I would prefer to repair or replace the skeg than to remove it as I want to try and keep the boat as original as I can.  I want it to look and sail as was intended when it was first built.  For that reason, I would rather not fit any radio equipment to it and would instead, like to find someone that could teach me how to sail it using vane steering once restored.  Russell Potts also siad that he would be inclined to fit a radio but (for the moment at least) I wish to avoid it.  I hope that this boat will be the first of many and I will have plenty of time to try out boats with radio control!  (He says...)

I have sent an email to a club at wickstead park and am waiting for a reply.  Are you a member af a club?  If so where is it as you are fairly close to me..  I have been to wickstead park many times and have seen the model boat lake.  It has access all the way around which I like and it is quite shallow (I saw a man wading in there to do something to his boat.) 

I hope I have answered your questions.. If I missed any give me a shout and tell me to read your message again!!  But in short, it is made of wood not fibreglass.  I plan on restoring it for vane steering and want to avoid radio.  Sails and mast are here but just to add, the man who gave me the boat has said he has found the boom and a long boathook to catch it at the shoreline so I need to collect those items as well.

Thank you for the links, I have so much to look through now!!  My wife will end up hating this boat!! haha!

James.

[MikeK]

Hi James
Glad my hunch was confirmed by the man himself ! If you follow the vane path obtaining the vane gear will probably be an expensive project, I think I have seen plans for building one on Model Boats or Marine Models magazines plans services but I could be wrong. I watched the Vane A boat Nationals at my club a few weeks back and it is still a black art to me !! Hopefully there are all the bits required in what you have already. It looks like there is enough skeg left to splice a new one on, helped maybe with some glass reinforcement, but if you should change your mind and follow the radio route you would crop the skeg back and use a balanced spade rudder as mentioned elsewhere. Whichever - power to your elbow 

Mike

[Hammer Man]

Hi Mike,

I take it Russell Potts is well known?  You are right, expensive indeed!  I have just been looking at vane gear and its £75!  Not sure if its the exact one I need or if indeed they are all the same?  Looks like I need to meet someone who knows thier stuff!  I'd still like to go with vane though, just means the financial side of it may slow me down a bit.  I wonder if anyone will have old vane gear lying around from a boat that they have converted to radio.....  Wishful thinking but something I may start asking as I learn more about what it is I need!


James.

[dougal99]

Hammer

Re vane gear. Not sure if this is your thing but there are plans available to build your own from the X list. MM270 Lassel Self Tacking Vane Gear £11.00

See    http://www.xlistplans.demon.co.uk/

The plan is rated 4 star so quite complex. Anyway I thought I'd let you know. 

Doug

[MikeK]

Hi Mike,

I take it Russell Potts is well known?  You are right, expensive indeed!  I have just been looking at vane gear and its £75!  Not sure if its the exact one I need or if indeed they are all the same?  Looks like I need to meet someone who knows thier stuff!  I'd still like to go with vane though, just means the financial side of it may slow me down a bit.  I wonder if anyone will have old vane gear lying around from a boat that they have converted to radio.....  Wishful thinking but something I may start asking as I learn more about what it is I need!


James.

Indeed Mr Potts is very well known in model yacht circles. I am pleasantly surprised at £75 for a steering setup I thought it would be more. If you weigh that price against a 2ch radio, plus a sail winch, even the cheapest available  and it wouldn't be a great deal more I would have thought, plus you would have the satisfaction of keeping her as she was designed. I can't advise you as to any variations in the steering gears - they all look bloomin' complicated to me ! but I'm sure someone on here is just about to burst into very useful print ?

Mike

PS See Doug was just waiting in the wings 

[Hammer Man]

Hammer

Re vane gear. Not sure if this is your thing but there are plans available to build your own from the X list. MM270 Lassel Self Tacking Vane Gear £11.00

See    http://www.xlistplans.demon.co.uk/

The plan is rated 4 star so quite complex. Anyway I thought I'd let you know. 

Doug

High Doug,

Thanks for that, I shall take a look!

James.

Indeed Mr Potts is very well known in model yacht circles. I am pleasantly surprised at £75 for a steering setup I thought it would be more. If you weigh that price against a 2ch radio, plus a sail winch, even the cheapest available  and it wouldn't be a great deal more I would have thought, plus you would have the satisfaction of keeping her as she was designed. I can't advise you as to any variations in the steering gears - they all look bloomin' complicated to me ! but I'm sure someone on here is just about to burst into very useful print ?

Mike

PS See Doug was just waiting in the wings 

Hi Mike,

Russell Potts has sent me another email asking for more detailed pictures of the fitting at the rear of the boat as he doesn't recognise it and is going to have a look. 

You thought it would be more than £75?  And perhaps it is, like I said I don't know if I was looking at the right thing.  To me it sounded expensive, having no idea of the value of the boat doesn't help.  For instance, if the boat is worth 5 quid at a carboot sale would it be worth spending £75 on a part for it...  Any ideas what this boat is worth?  And no I'm not going to dash off and sell it, I want it! haha! 

James.

[Ian Robins]

Hi,
It would be worth talking to Graham Reeves  as he has helped me with a few problems I have had with a vane/braine marblehead. He also sails them and is very interested in keeping the old yachts sailing. He also makes vane gear.
good luck
ro88o0

ps I have pm you

[Hammer Man]

Hi,
It would be worth talking to Graham Reeves  as he has helped me with a few problems I have had with a vane/braine marblehead. He also sails them and is very interested in keeping the old yachts sailing. He also makes vane gear.
good luck
ro88o0

ps I have pm you

Hi Ro88o,

Who is Graham Reeves?  Is he on here?  If so hopefully he will stumble across this thread!  I will go to my inbox and read your PM now, thank you.

James.

[andrewh]

Hi, James

Thanks for replying to the inquisition
Now we know what you intend its alll quite straightforward!

I have no practical knowledge of vane gear, but you are getting plugged in top people who do know - I understand that the Gosport Yachties sail vane=controlled yachts - it might be worth contacting them.
Ideally it would be nice for someone to say "that's a whatsit" vane - you just need the vane and deflocculator (or whatever) adding"

The rudder skeg on a ply yacht is fairly simple - at first glance it is a mahogany 3-ply probably about 5mm thick. 
Not sure if it can be repaired securely - but if it can you would cut the raggy biits off - leaving a big scarff angle, and glue/screw a new part to it - of approx the same thickness.  Cover if necessary or you want with a couple of layers of thin fibreglass and repaint
Probably better to replace the whole fin - there doesnt seem to be any way to peer into the hull?  Is there a drain or access hatch?
Basically you need to cut out the dead skeg - it will be glued where it passes thru the hull, and again up at or near the deck level - it may also be on or beside a bulkhead (running crosswise) so cutting out the bit of ply is more easily described than done, perhaps. 
Then find or make a suitable bit of new ply - perhaps 3 thicknesses of 1/16th ply or similar to about the same thickness, and trim till it fits beauifully.  I would suggest Polyurethane glue to put it in with, but epoxy of car body filling resin would be fine
Make a new rudder - same material - and devise pivot or whatever works - it looks as if there is probably a pivot tube throught the hull - it must go up to the vane gear, and the bottom of the rudder would most likely alos pivot on a brass removable fitting - so that the whole rudder can be withdrawn downwards.

The vane experts will be able to say if the rudder needs any counterbalance - it would be goood if anyone has a hull pic showing the rudder and skeg so that it can be reproduced

Let us know any help you need
andrew
 

[Tester]

Hi

There is also a MMI plan MAR2863 Braine & Vane Steering by George W. Clark which may help you.

Couple of scans from the plan

HTH
Richard

[Hammer Man]

Hi, James

Thanks for replying to the inquisition
Now we know what you intend its alll quite straightforward!

I have no practical knowledge of vane gear, but you are getting plugged in top people who do know - I understand that the Gosport Yachties sail vane=controlled yachts - it might be worth contacting them.
Ideally it would be nice for someone to say "that's a whatsit" vane - you just need the vane and deflocculator (or whatever) adding"

The rudder skeg on a ply yacht is fairly simple - at first glance it is a mahogany 3-ply probably about 5mm thick. 
Not sure if it can be repaired securely - but if it can you would cut the raggy biits off - leaving a big scarff angle, and glue/screw a new part to it - of approx the same thickness.  Cover if necessary or you want with a couple of layers of thin fibreglass and repaint
Probably better to replace the whole fin - there doesnt seem to be any way to peer into the hull?  Is there a drain or access hatch?
Basically you need to cut out the dead skeg - it will be glued where it passes thru the hull, and again up at or near the deck level - it may also be on or beside a bulkhead (running crosswise) so cutting out the bit of ply is more easily described than done, perhaps. 
Then find or make a suitable bit of new ply - perhaps 3 thicknesses of 1/16th ply or similar to about the same thickness, and trim till it fits beauifully.  I would suggest Polyurethane glue to put it in with, but epoxy of car body filling resin would be fine
Make a new rudder - same material - and devise pivot or whatever works - it looks as if there is probably a pivot tube throught the hull - it must go up to the vane gear, and the bottom of the rudder would most likely alos pivot on a brass removable fitting - so that the whole rudder can be withdrawn downwards.

The vane experts will be able to say if the rudder needs any counterbalance - it would be goood if anyone has a hull pic showing the rudder and skeg so that it can be reproduced

Let us know any help you need
andrew
 

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the help.  Indeed it would be nice if someone could say 'thats a whatsit vane...'

There is some sort of square access hatch in the middle of the boat but I'm not sure of its purpose.. Its too far from the skeg to see down that far. 

On further inspection I can see the pivot that you talk of, photos included!  This is all a bit complicated for me in all honesty..  I don't want to sound stupid but a lot of this really is going straight over my head so appologies if I later ask questions that have already been answered!

Hi

There is also a MMI plan MAR2863 Braine & Vane Steering by George W. Clark which may help you.

Couple of scans from the plan

HTH
Richard

Hi Richard,

Thank you, this looks helpful.  Complicated, yet helpful! haha!  Were these boats ever intended as childrens toys or were they always more for adults?  I suppose any child that ever had one as a toy must have had a very handy father to fix it if it were ever damaged!  Mind you, I suppose it doesn't help that I'd never seen one before!  I attempted to attach the mast yesterday to see what it looks like with the sails on but I gave up when I couldn't figure out how the rigging is supposed to go!!

Thank you all for your help so far,

James.

[Hammer Man]

I forgot the photos Andrew, sorry.  I will get onto it now! 

James.

[Hammer Man]

Pictures!






This part lifts up but does not come all the way out..

[tony52]

Hi

Before deciding whether to fit vane or radio the first thing to look at is the lake. A vane steered yacht is designed to head in a straight line, hence the skeg and small rudder. The vane will only correct the boat onto its correct heading. A radio yacht is designed for any direction except straight into the wind. Therefore a lake for vane steering will need access all around (and a pair of running shoes).

A commercially produced vane was still available recently from sails etc., although I have not checked this years catalogue.

Good luck, Tony.

[Hammer Man]

Hi Tony,

I'm hoping to use the model boat lake at Wickstead Park in Kettering which has all round access.  I will perhaps have a radio yacht one day but its just this particular yacht that was given to me that I wish to keep as it was intended.  It seems a shame to change it after so many years. 

Now, where did I put those running shoes.....


Thanks for your help,

James.

[Tester]

sailsetc do list a non self tacking vane gear in their 2008 catalogue, along with various other vintage style fittings.

link to their web page http://www.sailsetc.com/fitvint.htm also has illustrations that may help

Richard

[Hammer Man]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the link.  I had a look and I think this is the same thing I was looking at before, the price is around the same...  It says:

'...A simple vane gear – not a self tacking vane gear – that will be suitable for boats in the 800 mm to 1600 mm range....'

Does this mean that it would not be suitable for my boat as mine is 2000mm in length?  As I said before, this is all a bit too much for me to take in! haha!  Never was the cleverest kid in class!