Topic: Local council stupidity (Read 10588 times)

pettyofficernick · « **on:** October 05, 2010, 05:08:49 pm »

Hi there, Does anyone know how many people have been injured by model steam boilers exploding? The reason I ask is that my local authority is about to ban steam powered boats from the boating lake on the grounds of safety. As far as I know, as long as a current boiler certificate and MPBA insurance is in place, there should not be a problem. I think this ban is due to ill informed information from my local model boat club, who seem to think the lake is there for thier own personal use and nobody elses. When I mentioned that I was thinking of building a model steam boat to one of the senior members of the club, He tried to tell me that the bourough engineer is the only person who is allowed to test boilers! What a load of rot, especially as bourough engineers are civil engineers who build roads and sewers ect. I could do with some solid statistics so I can take the council to task over this matter, does anyone have any thoughts?

gondolier88 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 05, 2010, 05:25:19 pm »

Play their bluff- ask them to provide reasonable proof of unsafe boats in the past which they could reasonably legislate against (which as far as I know there hasn't been any).

And even if they did have proof of past models exploding and hurting people you can provide the proof that your plant has been tested by a competent person.

The other route to go down is just carry on- you know your plant is safe, and do you really think a PC, or PCSO for that matter, would be sent to 'remove a model boater with a little steam boat from the boating pond!'?

If they did I would then write to the local newspaper about the situation- having worked for a local authority in the past this is the single most powerful tool in Joe Public's armoury, they hate to be seen to preying on innocent tax-payers when they know that the money shpuld be spent on catching real criminals.

Greg

Marks Model Bits · « **Reply #2 on:** October 05, 2010, 05:31:47 pm »

You could join another boat club.... I am no expert on steam but a properly maintained and tested boiler has got to be a lot safer than an inexperienced modeller with a fast electric belting around the lake......

Mark.

Bunkerbarge · « **Reply #3 on:** October 05, 2010, 06:00:51 pm »

Quote from: No Mustang Mark on October 05, 2010, 05:31:47 pm

You could join another boat club.... I am no expert on steam but a properly maintained and tested boiler has got to be a lot safer than an inexperienced modeller with a fast electric belting around the lake......

Mark.

Perfectly true Mark. This is simply ridiculous and may have more to do with local politics than common sense, mainly because common sense has nothing to do with this!

I agree, ask the council what evidence they have to support such a ban.

I take it you are a member of a club that has insurance to cover third parties? If you are the insurers will require adherence to a set of rules such as the "Blue Book" or the MPBA rules in which case as long as you conform the council don't have a leg to stand on. If you don't belong to a club with insurance to cover steam plant then it would be you without the leg to stand on as most councils require third party cover to protect the public. Of course if your club refuse to get steam model cover then you will only be able to use your model entirely at your own risk, which is not advisable and you will need to either form your own club or join another one.

essex2visuvesi · « **Reply #4 on:** October 05, 2010, 06:03:49 pm »

Quote from: pettyofficernick on October 05, 2010, 05:08:49 pm

Hi there, Does anyone know how many people have been injured by model steam boilers exploding? The reason I ask is that my local authority is about to ban steam powered boats from the boating lake on the grounds of safety. As far as I know, as long as a current boiler certificate and MPBA insurance is in place, there should not be a problem. I think this ban is due to ill informed information from my local model boat club, who seem to think the lake is there for thier own personal use and nobody elses. When I mentioned that I was thinking of building a model steam boat to one of the senior members of the club, He tried to tell me that the bourough engineer is the only person who is allowed to test boilers! What a load of rot, especially as bourough engineers are civil engineers who build roads and sewers ect. I could do with some solid statistics so I can take the council to task over this matter, does anyone have any thoughts?

Probably the same as the number of children who lost an eye at school due to paper aeroplanes.... yet every teacher knew of a child that did

firedup · « **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2010, 10:32:09 pm »

I was once a member of a club (name withheld to protect the stupid) which had a rule which banned fast electric ,IC engines and steam.
I had little complaint regarding the first two as the club used the lake in the town park and rowing boats and water fowl do not go well with IC or fast electrics.
When I became interested in steam as a result of a new friendship with a retired engineer who encourage me to build my first steam engine I started to investigate how we might work on the the local council to change their mind regarding the ban on steam.
It turned out that there had never been such a ban in fact the ban came from the club itself

.
You should not be surprised to discover that the the view of your local council might have been coloured by experts in your local club

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #6 on:** October 05, 2010, 11:59:38 pm »

Yes I think that is what is happening, so called 'experts', (like the one who said the borough engineer had to test boilers and issue a certificate) influencing local authority. I am not a member of the club in question yet but do plan to join one of my local clubs in the near future. Many thanks to those that have replied, I now have the beginnings of some 'ammo' to deal with the council. I shall carry on regardless an finish building my little Stuart oscilator, once done I shall have to think of a hull and pot boiler.

yogojr · « **Reply #7 on:** October 06, 2010, 01:26:40 am »

As of right this date there are very few, if any, prohibitions against or regulations regarding the operation of model boilers here in the States. I have found that the authorities would rather not be bothered. The only regulations that I know of in respect to steam (outside of commercial use) is with traction engines and that is largly overseen by the traction engine community. Seems the more regulations there are the fewer the freedoms you have. Wonder how many potential hobbyists have been scared off unnecessarily?

Bunkerbarge · « **Reply #8 on:** October 06, 2010, 05:36:55 am »

It used to be the situation in my own club that the committee were reluctant to get into steam because mainly of fear of the unknown.

It usually takes someone with a bit of drive an initiative to get things off the ground and then every one is fine with it. I;d be cautious about taking on the council until you know all the facts. I suspect, as has been suggested, that it isn't the council banning them, it's more likely to be the club itself.

essex2visuvesi · « **Reply #9 on:** October 06, 2010, 06:22:54 am »

The rules here in Finland (well in my locality. It could well be different in inner city areas.) these were checked and confirmed with my local council

I can use my boats or any boats for that matter where I like providing:-

a) I use my commons sense

Simple rules are that I dont tresspass, If someone asks me to stop then i do

Its a bit different here as there is MUCH more water here, enough for everyone to enjoy in their own way.

If I were to organise an event then Im sure there would have to be regulations in place

Circlip · « **Reply #10 on:** October 06, 2010, 08:52:00 am »

Quote

do you really think a PC, or PCSO for that matter, would be sent to 'remove a model boater with a little steam boat from the boating pond!'?

What law would the police person be trying to enforce??

In the event of this happening, it would be an ideal opportunity to question criminal/civil actions, needs guts, but elected Representatives of the public need to be answerable to their electorate.

Regards Ian.

tigertiger · « **Reply #11 on:** October 06, 2010, 08:54:59 am »

A PC would not get involved.

A well meaning PCSO might get involved.

gondolier88 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 06, 2010, 09:43:48 pm »

Quote from: Circlip on October 06, 2010, 08:52:00 am

What law would the police person be trying to enforce??

Regards Ian.

Erm...

Quote

The reason I ask is that my local authority is about to ban steam powered boats from the boating lake on the grounds of safety

Greg

dreadnought72 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:10:36 pm »

Quote from: Essex2visuvesi on October 06, 2010, 06:22:54 am

The rules here in Finland (well in my locality. It could well be different in inner city areas.) these were checked and confirmed with my local council

I can use my boats or any boats for that matter where I like providing:-

a) I use my commons sense

Yes! That's my kind of regulation.

There's way too much "health and safety" in the UK, when a realistic application of common sense and "acceptable risk" ought rule.

Andy

essex2visuvesi · « **Reply #14 on:** October 07, 2010, 06:03:32 am »

We do have silly laws here as well but they are in the minority.

Circlip · « **Reply #15 on:** October 07, 2010, 01:10:21 pm »

Quote

Quote from: Circlip on Yesterday at 08:52:00 AM
What law would the police person be trying to enforce??

Regards Ian.

Erm...

Quote
The reason I ask is that my local authority is about to ban steam powered boats from the boating lake on the grounds of safety

Greg

Safety of what?? Fish stocks? Old people with walking sticks? Babies wearing bonnets??

Regards Ian.

Nordsee · « **Reply #16 on:** October 07, 2010, 08:28:11 pm »

I have read this with interest, but I have a query, what classes as a "Fast Electric"? I have seen scale model MTBs and E Boats that are as quick as you like, also some Speed boats that are definitely not!! Just because a boat looks fast it could well be a sheep in wolfs clothing, and vice versa.

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #17 on:** February 15, 2011, 02:28:37 am »

After phoning local council parks and gardens dept, I have found out that steam engines are infact banned from my local lake, on the advice of, yes, you guessed it, the local model boat club. I asked him if they (the council people) had actually done any research themselves, no was the answer, the advice of the club was enough for him. I have since found out that one of the hierarchy of this club I an acquaintance of the bloke in charge of the parks and gardens dept. I personally consider this to be undemocratic, just because they don't like steam engines, it appears that nobody else is allowed to enjoy them either. My next step will be to go to my local councillors surgery and see what he has to say about it all.

Roadrunner · « **Reply #18 on:** February 15, 2011, 08:59:59 am »

you know what to do right... stick two fingers up at it all , get 3rd party insurance just in-case, don't join the local club and use the lake with your steam engine when ever you feel. The words ***moderated*** to em springs to mind.

***Please do not use veiled swearing***

flashtwo · « **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2011, 09:05:27 am »

Hi,

I agree that some model boat clubs are wary of steam, because of their lack of knowledge on the subject.

You can imagine the problems that I had initially, when I would turn up with my steam boat at other club's open meetings, declaring that I had NO test certificate and didn't need insurance. I soon learnt my lesson - before unloading the boat (72lb) from the car, I would corner the club's chairman and, armed with the MPBA steam rules, give him a quick appreciation course in the whys and wherefores of flash steam boilers. Having the MPBA rules with me convinced the chairman that it was safe to steam the boat on "their" pond; I also carried my MPBA membership card as well.

It also demonstrated that some clubs didn't even realise that you might need insurance and a test certificate, and were quite happy to let me run the steam boat.

When visiting other clubs, I always follow the above procedure, with a bit of diplomacy thrown in for good measure - it has worked for me (so far!).

Ian.

Patternmaker · « **Reply #20 on:** February 15, 2011, 04:42:31 pm »

Back in the eighties CIMA Canvey Island Model Association had nice lake to hold power boat racing with permission from the local Council, we built a jetty, I built a rescue dingy, we held A, B, C & D
Class multi races every two weeks alternating with Sailing Boats, which attracted a lot of spectators.

One occasion during a D class multi race an idiot threw a stick in the lake for his large dog to fetch, in order to avoid hitting the dog quite a lot of damage was caused to several boats including mine, after a lot of harsh
words the person involved said he would get the Council to stop the use of the lake for model power boats as his dog liked to swim in the Lake.

It transpired he was an ex councilor and freemason with a lot of clout with the council who subsequently withdrew permission for use. by our club. Despite partitions by our club and many residents who liked to watch the racing The council would not budge. Its not what you know but who you know.

Unfortunately our club had to disband shortly after.

Circlip · « **Reply #21 on:** February 15, 2011, 06:12:09 pm »

Quote

After phoning local council parks and gardens dept, I have found out that steam engines are infact banned from my local lake

For you to fall foul of and be prosecuted, you must contravene a local bylaw. This must have been heard and adopted by the full council. WHEN?

You have a right to inspect as a ratepayer.

Regards Ian.

malcolmfrary · « **Reply #22 on:** February 15, 2011, 07:25:26 pm »

Somewhere on your councils website should be a list of byelaws, including, or not, types of model boat allowed.
Carrying either your own, or a club's, insurance is a good idea, and membership of a club affiliated to your regional engineering association and having a certified boiler tester is good as well, being a way to having a test certificate and access to a valid set of operation documents. This last is important so that you can show that you are behaving in a safe manner to a plod or council official.
However, if the water is populated by a bunch of selfish bodies who have the capability and desire to cause you grief however right you can prove yourself to be, the only answer is distance.
One of the things that caused the demise of the classic boat rallys (full size) on my local lake (among others) was a report from a toxic old biddy who was "walking in the park with her grand-daughter, and they saw a speeding boat hit a duckling", the report repeated for three years.

john s 2 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 16, 2011, 06:38:31 pm »

Im sure you would already be doing so. But it is important that no Oil is discharged into the Lake. It is one visable thing that can be
seized on and result in a ban. Good luck. John.

Barry · « **Reply #24 on:** February 17, 2011, 12:55:32 am »

Our local council has a blanket ban on 'toy' boats of any kind on any of it's ponds and lakes. We have to sail on a private property.

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Author Topic: Local council stupidity (Read 10588 times)

pettyofficernick

firedup

pettyofficernick

yogojr

Nordsee

pettyofficernick

Roadrunner

Patternmaker