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[Bryan Young]

Sorry Derek. You are about 50% correct!
When I was a cadet the "standard" crew on a Ben Line ship was 56.
Probably more if a full Chinese or Indian crew was signed on.I think you fall short in the catering and deck rating count.
Old cargo ships needed a lot of manpower on deck.For starters, there would be 3 ratings per watch, with 3 watches =9. You would have one guy on the wheel, one lookout (at night) and the "stand-by man (the "farmer"). When berthing you'd probably find 6 ratings at each end of the ship. So in port you'd have a workforce of around 20 to call on. Cadets/apprentices would be included in that number. Then you'd have a bosun, carpenter, "lampy" and occasionally a deck storekeeper. Only 2 stewards sounds a bit thin. Remember these were the days when the stewards also kept the officers cabins "habitable". In the RFA they doubled up as gun crews! Cargo working wasn't all left to the shoreside stevedores. The deck crew were responsible for removing/replacing the hatchboards and hatch beams. And remember that an open shelterdecker would have 3 layers of "hold", so with (say) 5 hatches working you'd have 15 layers of beams/covers to attend to. Then the deck crew would have to be constantly adjusting the derricks..topping/lowering/swinging and so on. Plus a lot more. So 56 still sounds about right!. Bryan.

[BarryM]

Derek,

My question was not about how big a typical crews was - I sailed with enough of those - but how big it would have to be before the carriage of a doctor was mandatory.

Barry M

[Bryan Young]

Barry, I thought that question had already been answered.
Any number of crew as far as I know, but a max of 12 paying passengers. The relevant word here being "paying".
A short while ago you alluded to people "working their passage", or company personell going off to servr in furrin parts. These people were classified as "Supernumaries" and as such were not classified as "passengers". Similarly when a seaman from anywhere and from any company was being repatriated with a "DR", "VNC" or injury/sickness. In some cases the first 2 categories would eventually be liable for costs incurred by his original company.
A "DR" in a seafarers Discharge Book means "Decline To Report" and basically brings a seamans career at sea to a grinding halt.
A "VNC" means "Voyage Not Completed". This covers a range of things from jumping ship with deportation to circumstances reasonably beyond the seamans control. A matter for later adjudication.
However. There is nothing in law to prevent a company employing a ships doctor even when not carrying passengers. The RFA is a case in point here, that I'm not going into.

[Bryan Young]

Ah, now we come to the “Port Line”. Much favoured by our Antipodian friends. Mainly because of their name I suspect.
A really major player in the NZ and Australia trade.
Joined at the hip almost from conception to Cunard (identical funnels) they gave Cunard an opening into routes that were not of their historical persuation..ie the N.Atlantic.
Although most people will believe that their main trade was between the UK and the Antipodes….they had another route. This was called the MANZ run. This was the “Montreal”- “Australia” – “New Zealand” trot. A long haul.
The litany of companies trecking back and forth to Australia and New Zealand must have been an almost “pipe-line” structure. NZS, Federal, Port Line, SS&A (more on them later), Blue Star (now and again) plus all the “tramping” outfits. Aussie and NZ didn’t really have a merchant Marine during these years….although the Union Steamship Co of NZ was pretty active.
But this portion is “Port Line”.

[Bryan Young]

Last 5 of Port Line:-

[Bryan Young]

PSNC (Pacific Steam Navigation Company).
This company was first founded in 1838, so it had a lot of history. Their chosen trade was with the west coast of South America. Must have been an arduous run before the Panama Canal opened.  I suppose they are known to most people because of the liner “Andes”, but they also operated a fleet of “traditional” cargo liners. Of which “Flamenco” was just one of a class of 5. All built by Greenock Dockyard. Recognize the design? If it wasn’t for the yellow funnel it could easily be a Clan Line ship. As I mentioned earlier, this “standard” design must have been a money spinner for them, and it pre-dated the SD14s that many people thought of as a breakthrough in standardisation. I’m not including the wartime Libertys, Oceans,Forts etc.

[colin-d]

i have on the cards.... a model of the SS Falcon (1927)

The General Steam Navigation Company's cargo vessel 'Falcon' (1927, 1316 GRT) under way on the River Thames in 1954. She was scrapped three years later

i have the Plans and the Hull, just have to find time to build her...

[Bryan Young]

General Steam really did have some dinky little ships. They had a nice one at Marchwood for years to teach squaddies about loading and discharging ships. I would imagine that your projected model would, if built at 1:48, be about the same size as my "General Havelock" model. Good luck with it. Bryan.

[yorkiej]

Fot those who are not aware, a point about the passenger limit of 12 before a doctor had to be carried as mentioned above. You could have four times that number of crew and no doctor was considered necessary. What the crew limit was, I do not know but perhaps somebody can supply the number?

In the absence of a doctor, medical tratment of a crew at sea was supplied by the 'Ship's Captains Medical Guide' in the hands of the Mate or Chief Steward, I have heard it said, although I don't know if it is true, that a ship's master could, in an emergency, legally perform any operation except dental work.

Don't have nightmares,

Barry M

Hello Barry,
I'm not sure that there was a limit to the number of crew members until a Doc was required but I suspect crew were expendable against passengers. In 1959 we has 68 crew, 21 Officers and the rest made up of Indian Sailors and Goanese Stewards. The 2nd Mate was the 'Medical Officer' with keys to the medical locker, which was a double wardrobe size locker in the bulkhead in the Officers cross aleyway. The Fist Mate (Chief Officer) and the Master  had to have Ship Captains Medical Certificates which allowed them to perform operations to try to save lives. Just imagine, a ship enroute from Panama to Japan on a great circle route which took the ship so far north to be near the Allution Islands. Or a great circle route from Panama to New Zealand. No helicopters, no help, unless a passenger ship with a Doc. was in reach. If it was an try to operate or die situation then 'Go for it@.
Help was available from a medicol station in Holland which would talk you through an op. Every ship had a hospital with op table and a bunk on gimbals and enough morphine to kill the crew but the phrase ' Your life in their hands' was very appropriate.
The Medical Locker had just about all that would be required, a full operating kit with scalpels, retractors and the like plus a full dental kit for extractions. The Mater and 1st Mate could pull teeth s well!!!
Oh, what fun if it was a bloke you didn't like.
Just to clear up a point, the only real Officer on the Articles of a British Merchant Ship was the Radio officer. All the rest were 'The Master and Crew'. The Radio Officer was mentioned apart from the rest.
Cheers
John

[BarryM]

Given the shaky hands of some of the Masters and Mates I sailed with, I think that if it was 'life or death' I would get one of the Engineers to do the op. At least they were used to taking things apart and putting them together again. 

Barry M

[Bryan Young]

Royal Mail Lines.
Another long established outfit that hit the buffers. Same liner run as Blue Star (East coast of S.America) and also in the “meat” trade…meat as in “beef”, not as the NY Mafia would have it).
Another very personal opinion here, although their fleet of cargo liners were pretty much “normal” for their time, the passenger liners always looked “quirky”. The main reason for this “oddness” arises from what seems to be a fervent desire on the part of the owners to keep the ships officers as far removed from the paying passengers as possible. The picture of “Durango” illustrates this point. I may show a pic of one of their last “liners” later.But to be honest, I don’t know all that much about Royal Mail…being more of a Far East person.
But have another look at “Loch Gowan”….one of a class again, yet another “Clan” boat in different colours.

[Bryan Young]

Shaw Saville and Albion.
Known throughout the seafaring fraternity as “Slow Starvation and Agony”.
Another very long established company that is no more. I suppose that, on balance, Shaw Saville had more passenger liner type of ship (although still carrying cargo) than most other operators in the Antipodes trade. They, like many others, also had close ties with other companies. Just who owned what needs a better historian than me to sort out. For instance, as soon as I saw the photo of the “Nordic” I thought “Prince Line” (Furness withy). It really is surprising how many companies built ships whose appearance/design was so “in-house”. My one exception to this threads concentration on British design, build and ownership is the photo of “Bardic”. Simply because she was my first ship. Not that I’d joined SS&A, but because she’d just been bought by the Ben Line. She started life as the WW2 escort carrier HMS Puncher, and was built in Seattle. 

[Colin Bishop]

Bryan,

The island bridge was almost standard Royal Mail popicy and they persevered with it long after there was any reasonable grounds for doing so. They were just wedded to the hatch in the middle of the superstructure concept! Aragon and her sisters had relatively short lives on the South American run and were converted into car carriers after which they resembled seagoing bricks. She ended up looking like this: http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=1332391

Colin

[Bryan Young]

Colin....oh, dear. I thought them to look odd enough when in their prime, perhaps the best I can say about your link is that the first word of the companys name is about right....if spoken in a Northumbrian dialect.
    A pal of mine used to be Captain of one of these "things" (we get lots of them now, hovering off the Tyne for the next load of Datsuns...or is that Nissan nowadays). He had an awful time. Stress related heart attack, early retirement etc. He said it would have made things a lot easier if any 2 of the ships company had been able to converse in the same language...and this was a British flagged ship!. Cheers. Bryan.

[tassie48]

Port New Plymouth worked on here on deck back in the early 1970s great ship good ship mates bad cook on one trip stew ever night great bunch of photos thanks for listing them tassie48

[pugwash]

Well Colin they certainly didn't do anything for her looks when then converted her I think I described them as "boxes of the sea" in
an earlier post.  Not to far wrong.

Geoff

[Bryan Young]

Strick Line.
Another well known company, although not having a fleet as large as most I’ve covered. They were a pretty common sight on the Tyne as most of them seem to have been built in the N.East, and returned here for dry-docking. When I first went to South Shields Marine College for my one year pre-sea induction in 1956, I was delighted to see a superb builders model of “Khuzistan” in the foyer (there was also a builders model of a Shell tanker, but enough of that). I wonder if they are still there?
They were very distinctive ships with a grey hull, black funnel with a white band and red and blue chevrons on the white. Their main route was between the UK and the Persian Gulf. Not a run that ever appealed to me….a view re-inforced when I was nav. on “Pearleaf and 1/O on a Tide during some of the “troubles” there.
In these 3 photos, the first 2 are a couple of standard wartime built ships. Most if not every company trotting the globe in the 1950s were still using the Forts, Oceans, Libertus etc. or variations of them. But they were being rapidly replaced by the new breed of “handsome” ships. “Seistan” being one of them. I’m dwelling on this for a reason.
“Seistan” was built by Readheads of South Shields and launched in July 1957.
In early 1958 (possibly her maiden voyage) while outward bound with a general cargo including explosives she blew up and sank killing all on board.
In those days the BBC used to broadcast a weekly “Merchant Navy Programme”, which we all used to listen to. I do recall being a cadet on Bennevis (an Ocean class ship) passing the southern tip of Ceylon when the news of her demise reached us. Quite traumatic for a second year cadet.
The disaster was put down to the eplosiveness of the large amount of “boot black” being carried. This has always puzzled and intrigued me. First of all, just what is “boot black”? A shoe polish? If so she must have been carrying the entire world supply of the stuff. O was it something that acted as a trigger for other forms of explosive? If that’s the case then the various explosives weren’t correctly segregated.
(see my story of the horrors we had when “loaded for bear” en route to the Gulf in 1987). A sad tale, even now nearly 60 years later.

[Bryan Young]

T&J Harrison.
I suppose this selection could have been filed under “H”, but as they were always known as T&J Harrison I’ve left them under “T”.
A “scouse” outfit known throughout the British MN as “Two Of Fat and One Of Lean” after the 2 wide white bands and the middle red one on the black funnel.
Another pretty large concern mainly running to South America.
I’m not sure how to classify this company. A bit of everything would probably fit them. Apart from the funnel, there wasn’t really much of the “family resemblance”. They did have classes of ship, but so many “classes” gets confusing. Also, like Blue Flue, they eventually used a pink boot-topping colour.
These are the first 4 of 9.

[tony52]

For anyone enjoying Bryans photographs, this month Ships Monthly magazine are featuring a cargo vessel from this period - Wharanui

http://www.shipsmonthly.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65&Itemid=54

http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum%20Ships/Old%20Ships%20W/slides/Wharanui-02.html

[Bryan Young]

Harrisons (Cont’d).
There are a few points of interest in this last 5:
“Settler”. Unusually long derricks that would have to be stowed vertically on passage.
                 The unusual “boxing in” along the deck under the boat deck. Perhaps extra accommodation was added? Certainly doesn’t look original.
“Herdsman”. The 2 small additions at the for’d end of the poop. Look too small to be cabins, and why fit scuttles to a storeroom?
“Arbitrator”.
               For some reason or other many ships built during the 10 years following WW2 had a design speed of only 12.5 knots. Why not 12, or 13? OK, 12.5 gives a days run of 300 miles. So that would make it simple for the owners to calculate the steaming time between ports. In theory. But owners like it simple, and if anything is amiss they can always send one of those “We fail to understand” letters.
“Barrister”.
                First thing to note is the presence of a “docking bridge” on the poop. Don’t see them any more. Really intended to allow the 2nd mate or whoever was in charge down there to “control” the docking process….its effect in real life was to keep the 2nd mate out of the way and let the sailors get on with the job.
                Then look at the cargo gear. It looks a mess, but isn’t. It seems as if the lighter derricks have been topped and swung out of the way of the (possibly)  20 ton derricks mounted on the ships centre line. But it does illustrate how much work was entailed in getting the derricks positioned in the “right” place.
“Custodian”.
              Quite a handsome ship. The “pink” boot topping painted “twixt wind and water” clearly shows (more or less) the range of draughts between loaded and light ship….even though the “load line” is well above the top of the pink bit.
             If it can be seen, note the difference in the height of the hatch coamings on the after deck compared to the lower ones on the foredeck. Much sturdier to allow heavy stuff to be carried as deck cargo.
I only saw one of this class a few times, but they always looked right for the job. 

[Bryan Young]

T&J Brocklebank.
Another ancient company that thrived for going on 200 years.
Mainly traded between the UK and India.
Very distinctive ships set off by the very broad white line around the hull.
The photo of “Makrana” is typical of their later ships, and very reminiscent of the ubiquitous design used by Clan line and others. Another distinguishing feature of the later Brocklebanks was the absence of a full length mainmast, so they were the only company I recall that flew their houseflag from the foremast.

[mersey dave]

Hi Bryne, great photos mate if you don't mind will it be ok for me to copy these and add them as a slide show on our web site.http://wallaseymodelboatsociety.co.uk/

Regards Dave.

[Colin Bishop]

Dave,

I think you should be a bit careful there. The photos belong to Bryan but many of them are still almost certainly subject to copyright and currently on sale (see earlier post) so he is not in a position to give you permission and copying them again might be a step too far if somebody happened to notice!

Colin

[dave301bounty]

Harrison,s . You got two of my old ships there .One of the skippers from the Merch assosiation told me you had these on ,well I sailed on the old Barrister ,was on her for three years ,happy ship ,all scowsers except for the down below gang later on ,i started as junior 6eng ,and got my time in ,up to 4th ,then moved on ,not to the next ,but eventually joined the big C  as she was known ,the Custodian ,sailed on her as senior 4th eng ,carried two 4ths because of the stulken lift ,big Allen generators down to power the lift ,sad thing was they were built so i was told ,just for the carrying off big electrical equipment to central america ,then it was an open shop ,but the trip i was on ,she broke down off Walvis bay ,and after 12 hours we got going and made Durban .She was a hansome ship ,what ever happened into her life later ,it was sad .but Harrisons had a real various runs , and nothing like Harrisons of London ,who I sailed with ,just for some variety and I got it ,,but that is another story as they say ,,now I sail model boats ,but you cant beat the real experience ,no way .

[Colin Bishop]

Well, its not really a question of whether you see the harm in it, it's a question of legal copyright.

Thes originals of these photos belong to someone who makes a living from selling them and they wouldn't take too kindly to people making copies and showing them around for free. Three years ago the HMS Warrior Trust went bananas when they discovered I'd taken some photos for my own personal use while aboard the ship the day after I'd taken some official ones for an article I was writing for Model Boats magazine. I thought they were being a bit paranoid but it turned out that at a wedding aboard a few weeks previously, the photographer had taken a number of extra shots which he was trying to sell. I was able to square it OK with the Warrior people as I'd already agreed to let them approve the shots i was going to use in the article but these things are taken vary seriously.

As I said above, Bryan cannot give you permission to use any photos that he has not taken himself or does not hold the copyright on. If you choose to copy them yourself then the responsibility is on your head but as you got them from Mayhem you are possibly exposing both Martin and Bryan to potential action.

Colin