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[Martin (Admin)]

 Hello All,
Martin, AKA captain Dobey, asked me to write a little primer about "Model Warship Combat" for the Mayhem site.
I'm by no means a expert but here goes.




Models warship combat happens when a group of like minded modellers get together and build semi scale warships, arm them with Co2 powered cannons, go out to the pond and try to sink each other.

Here is another description from the Basin shipyards web site

Warship combat is a wonderfully addictive hobby where scale models of WW1 and WW2 warships are built, armed, and fought. These ships really do fire BB's and really do sink. All key internals are waterproofed or naturally waterproofed. The battle damage is readily repaired in a few minutes at the battle, allowing many sorties per day.

The Ships

The ships are semi scale WW I and WWII warships, the most common scale is 144th.
They are constructed with watertight boxes for the electronics and skinned with 1/32 balsa and silk span so cannon projectiles can penetrate and let the water in and bilge pumps to get the water out.
Holes made by the opposing team are easily patched with a litter glue and a bit of silkspan. so If your electric box is really watertight you can be sunk in the morning battle get patched up and ready to go out and be sunk in the afternoon battle....

Some ships are made with store bought GRP hulls, windows are cut and skinned over with the balsa.
some ships are made with wood ribs and the ribs support the 1/32 balsa skin, either way the balsa has to be thin enough to let the projectile through and allow the water in...

Each ship is given a battle unit designation, from 0 to 8.
The battle units are assigned to a warship based on the originals armament
A battle unit can be a cannon or a bilge pump, so its up to you to decide how you want to use your battle units.
lets say you have a Yammatto,the biggest battleship, this is a 8 unit ship you can have two battle units used up with two bilge pumps and six guns or one battle unit for the pump and the rest guns or even no pump and all guns....not recommended!

Speed is another factor in ship construction and is measured in the number of seconds it takes to travel a 100ft course.
The assigned speed is loosely determined by the speed of the original ship.
So dreadnaughts and predreadnaughts are generally slower than battleships of WWII.
An example is the HMS Dreadnaught has a speed of 28sec per 100 ft and the Hms Vangaurd has a speed of 24sec per 100ft.


The Cannons

The cannons are rather crude looking affairs made up of mostly plumbing fittings and tubing. The progectiles are 177cal steel balls, here in the states we call them BB's
the cannons powered by Co2 tanks that have the pressure regulated down to 150psi.
Cannons are constructed in such a way as that they only fire one projectile at a time. So when you hit the joystick and the servo opens the valve your cannon had better only let go of one BB or you must be willing to endure a lot of verbal abuse from your Mates.


The Battles

The battles are usually broken down between the Allied and the Axis, each side usually has an admiral in charge to plan out stratagem.
Points are awarded for the damage inflicted on the opposing side, for example one point for a penetration above the water line two points for on the water line and five points for below the water line......and of course a sink is cause for breaking out the pints and having a toast.

For more info here are a few links

http://www.mwci.org/ - http://www.ircwcc.org/
http://www.basinshipyards.com/ - http://www.battlersconnection.com/

Cheers
Alan

[RickF]

I can see the attraction of this, but it all seems to happen at point blank range - there are several video on U-Tube. But a real opportunity to try out some Glynn Guest semi-scale models.

However, at the risk of laying myself open to a charge of "nannyism" (is that a word?) has anyone got away with doing it over here in the UK. Gas-propelled BB pellets across the park lake? "Allo, allo, allo. What's all this then? You're nicked, sunshine"

Rick

[Marks Model Bits]

I want one looks like a lot of fun plus it might be a solution to stone throwing hooligans nothing on the model that cant be easily fixed and you can fire back, would make them think twice!!!!!!

[HS93 (RIP)]

worth a look

http://www.ausbg.org/

Peter

[patchwork45]

  I found this link to a new site,if you go into the forums, in the video section there are some links to some videos on utube.

   http://www.rcnavalcombat.com/RCNavalCombat/

  Cheers

      Alan

[rats]

Watching those videos makes me think its an expensive hobby - new electronics and boat rebuild everytime out. Looks good fun though !

[tigertiger]

Watching those videos makes me think its an expensive hobby - new electronics and boat rebuild everytime out. Looks good fun though !

But the electrics go in a 'butty box', and the ships are patched up pronto.

This does sound addictive.

As kids my brother and I used to put old airfix models in the sand pit and pop with an air rifle. Naughty, but fun.

[J.beazley]

What a great idea but i can see a few flaws in the sport.

in the event of a rollover say bye to your gel cells  :(
taken too many hits bilge pump cant keep up with the sinking :(
what if you take a hit to the gel cells or CO2 tank 

On the plus side you could build a perkasa and use the torpedo tubes as gun turrets how fun would that be  fast attack and escape perfect.

Jay

[Tom@Crewe]

Sorry can't be exact, but I can remember reading that this under UK law would be against the law, something to look at before you build.

And that was before they tightened up gun laws.

[RickF]

Tom,

That's why I asked if anyone had done it in the UK. Even in the far-off days when I was a (air)gun-toting teenager, I believe the law forbade the firing of any gun within 50 feet of a public path. God knows what the rules are now.

Rick

[tigertiger]

I suppose it depends on the legal definition of 'gun' in the UK.

But I am in china where the fireworks set of car alarms 500m away from ground zero.

That could be interesting methinks

[BarryM]

What a great idea but i can see a few flaws in the sport.

in the event of a rollover say bye to your gel cells  :(
taken too many hits bilge pump cant keep up with the sinking :(
what if you take a hit to the gel cells or CO2 tank 

On the plus side you could build a perkasa and use the torpedo tubes as gun turrets how fun would that be  fast attack and escape perfect.

Jay

I saw a photo on a US website of what happened when a BB hit a CO2 tank. Perhaps the tank was faulty but the way it was ripped open by the escaping gas made me glad I was nowhere close when it happened.

Barry M

[patchwork45]

    Here is a link to utube


        http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kotori87


    Thease brothers have made a lot of videos and have them posted.
  I found some of them quite entertaining.

   Alan

[patchwork45]

  Hello All,

 I thought I would address a few questions that I have read so far on this thread.

  The electrices in the combat boats are protected from water by a watertight box ,much like one you would make if you were building a sub.

 The battery's and the co2 tank are protected by what we call "internal armor" in my case I use a sheet of flexable plastic that is loosely hung on the inside of the hull ribs.
the loose sheet of  plastic absorbs the impact of the low velocity projectile and it then rolls into the bilge.

 In general the battles are almost point blank which isn't realistic but after you get used to the Idea is still fun and challenging.
 
 Ive been emailing Martin for a few years now and during one of those exchanges I asked if there wasn't warship combat in the UK because of the gun laws. He believed it was but was interested and asked me to come up with some pictures and a few words.

  Hope this clears up a few questions.

   Alan

[Colin H]

With regards to doing this in the UK  NO! NO! NO!

Plod would have you down the nick before the boat had sunk. If it fires a projectile powered by CO2 it would almost certainly fall within the firearms laws and they are much deeper than people realise.

For instance when is a smooth bore shotgun not a shotgun? When its barrel is less than 24" long it is then a firearm.

If you fired a catapult at someone you would be charged under the Firearms Act.

If you built a smooth bore CO2 gun at that size and with a kinetic energy of more than 12 foot pounds you would most likely find it was a firearm. This would of course require a firearms licence and have to be proofed by one of the approved " Proof Houses". You would then only be allowed to use it on an approved range and sand back stops don't float well.

As an aside and to prove the stupidity of our laws to our world wide friends. A news article today reported that the police had cautioned a man with "Possesion of an EGG with intent to throw". True, honest, cross my heart and hope to die.

It looks like great fun. Thats one more reason they wound not let you do it.

Yours with a grump on.

Colin H.

[Martin (Admin)]

Another video from my mate Alan... "State" side!
 Warship combat 2007 season highlites

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsKY6-85Deg

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Well I completely lost a well thought post because of too many images...

ah well.. a quick version..

Here is my 1/72nd scale Italian DD in the early days
An updated version with the Japanese DD Tachikaze.
Light Cruiser Atillo Regolo
Guns for the Atillo Regolo.

The Destroyers are allowed two guns by our combat rules. They are semi automatic, each gun can carry 50 rounds in its magazine. The Co2 is run through two regulators to drop the pressure from
the High pressure Co2 bottle down to 100 psi or less. Guns typically run around 78 psi. The guns
must pass a penetraton test, and are not allowed to pass through 2"(50mm) of rigid insulation foam.

The guns are made up of Clippard Minimatic air valves, a bent stainless steel barrel, and a custom loader.
The loaders are required to allow only one round to be fired per "trigger" pull.

The critical components of the ship are kept in a water tight box. Over the years most people find that
thier water tight boxes hold water real well. Motors and some servos, typically gun rotation and elevation
servos are left exposed. A ship can be sunk and usually back on the water within an hour. Most of the
time is spent drying out the guns and loaders. My record for sinking is seven times in one weekend(2 days).
I got an award for that...  ::) Bilge pumps are limited in liters per hour, and by class. Larger ships are, actually,
allowed to pump less water than small ships. This is because the larger ships take more time and water to
sink, and are actually at less risk.


We had one member in Scotland for a while. He flew out to Washington state USA, stayed
a week at one of the members houses, and he flew home with a stately destroyer.
He kept in contact for a few years, but I have not heard anything about him for a while.

http://queensown.org/index.php
Honestly, if it had not been for members of this club, I would not have learned how to scratch build a ship.
 

Last picture,.. My Scirocco, sister ship Oriani, and a 1/72nd scale Bismarck.

[MartinH-K]

While Colin is correct, in order to 'prove' a substantive offence under any legislation, the CPS must prove mense rae. This means they must prove that you either intended to commit an offence or were reckless as to whether an offence would be committed or not. That is the situation in ANY criminal case. If any of you were wishing to explore this option, you could do a lot worse than discussing it with the firearms officer at your local nick. I suspect that, given certian precautions were taken, you might find this was actually possible. Maybe not but what have you to lose?

[Mankster]

What about those BB firing RC tanks that my local hobby store sells (basically a radio controlled air pistol)? Fires a good 25 feet or so and dont half hurt, still perfectly legal. And paint balling too.

[RickF]

Going back to what I hinted at in March, the following are from various up-to-date sources

Airguns in Public Places

It is against the law for anyone to have an airgun in a public place unless they have some proper reason for doing so - for example, it has just been confiscated from an offender. A public place is anywhere where the public are allowed to go, regardless of who owns the land, and even though they may have to pay. Roads, streets, footpaths, canal towpaths, public parks, play areas are all examples of public places. If the general public have some sort of right or permission to be in a particular place, that is a public place and you are not allowed to have a loaded airgun in that place.

I guess those tanks are supposed to be played with in the garden? And paint-balling takes place on enclosed private land, with protective clothing - not round the park on a Sunday morning!

Highways

It is an offence to fire any weapon within 50 feet of the centre of any public highway, if by doing so you cause a nuisance. This offence could be committed by someone on private property close to a road who used a gun in a way which upset people on the road. Public highways include roads, bridleways and public footpaths.


The Penalties for breaking current UK firearms laws with Airguns are as follows:

Carrying a loaded Air-weapon in a public place 6 months imprisonment and / or £5,000 fine.
Trespassing with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.
Trespassing on private land with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.
Killing or injuring any bird or protected animal unless authorised £5,000 fine.
Firing an air weapon within 15m / 50ft of a public highway £1,000 fine.

Still want to try it?

Rick

[grantl]

If I'm reading this right then if you have, or make, a private pond then this would be ok. so long as the gun power was still low enough to be an air weapon and not a fire-arm. Given the description of the boats having balsa sides I don't think a lot of power is needed.

Sounds like fun, time to build a lake.

Grant

[RickF]

So long as you're more than fifty feet from the road, path or bridleway!

There have to be easier ways of enjoying model boating.

[andyn]

http://westernwarshipcombat.com/
http://www.morgretengineering.com/node/1

I WANT ONE

How fascinating. don't think anyone else at the club would want one though, except maybe Bill.

Looks incredibly expensive though, one commercially made cannon barrel with 3 turrets is $150 

[SteamboatPhil]

When I lived in the states (some 10 years ago) it was very popular, and I used to go down to the local lake most weekends and watch the chaps slug it out and sink each other. Spend the week rebuilding and back on the water the following weekend----

[andyn]

Might have a go, have a bb gun (a cheapo one for clearing the  squirrels from the back garden before we got the dog), some hulls, some engines, and a lot of servos.

Watch out Tarquin, the boats coming for you (if it can keep up with the makara, which it won't...)

You sent those props/shafts Phil?, at the stage now where I'm ready for them (hinthint )