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[Rob47]

Admin hope you don't mind this, if in wrong area please move.


There is a crowd funding page (google it) raising money for the repatriation of HMS Hermes to the UK.. It seems the big money backers want to see the public interest and have set a target for crowdfunding.. The aims if she is saved are ambitious but very good.

Bob

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/hms-hermes-repatriation/ - Admin

[TailUK]

It's a nice idea but they couldn't raise enough money to save HMS Plymouth so a capital ship like the Hermes would be a huge proposition.  Surely this money would be better spent on existing preserved ships and better museum facilities.  As much as it would be nice to have such a major vessel in preservation it remains to seen if there is the interest from the big corporate sponsors that are so much a part of modern museum preservation.
The Vulcan for the Sky trust are struggling because they needed to hand back the hanger space to the airport because of commercial pressure and specialist engineering support is dwindling.  Take these problems and multiply them to 23.000 tons and that's starting to look like a major undertaking.

[Colin Bishop]

I've got to agree. Not a hope. The hull is nearly 70 years old, the ship has been extensively changed since her Falklands days so probably looks nothing like it used to be in RN service. It's totally worn out and probably unseaworthy as well. If you do get it back to the UK, what will you do with it? No feasible business plans could be devised for preserving one of the Illustrious class. Unlike say, the QE2, you couldn't use it as a hotel with it's warren of small compartments and high hatch sills. Where would you moor it? The ship draws 27 feet. That sort of alongside quay depth is valuable property and costs a lot to rent, the more so if it is close to a large centre of population which it would need to be.

People who are likely to be aware of and support crowdfunding will have been born after the Falklands war which will seem like ancient history to them.

Sorry this all sounds negative but that's the way things are unfortunately. Simply getting the ship back to the UK would be a major achievement. Getting it to pay its way once it was here would be nigh on impossible as countless other abortive preservation projects, usually involving vessels a fraction of the size of Hermes,  have demonstrated.

Colin

[TailUK]

If you're going to try raising money for museum projects how about a National Royal Navy Museum, lots of big models (kids love big models) exciting displays,  lots of artefacts and interactive recorded memories.  I visited the U boat at the Museum of Science in Chicago and the display around the boat was outstanding except for a minor issue. (American do this kind of thing pretty well.)   Kids will learn more from a Museum of this kind than being carefully shepherded around a ship by people terrified the little darlings will fall off the edge of the flightdeck.

[Colin Bishop]

We do already have a RN Naval Museum https://www.nmrn.org.uk/ at Portsmouth Dockyard and they do have a fantastic collection of models although not all are on display at the same time depending on what exhibitions are being put on. In 2009 they did open up their collections and Model Boats published an article by myself which included a lot of photos of them.

Colin

[Rob47]

It seems that no one has looked at the plans for her.  Moored in London, conversion to hotel, conference facility, museum and use by Sea cadets. So the argument about compartments etc., is null.  The idea of the crowdfunding is that there are several millions to be donated, on the provision that the public want this, which is only fair, for if you are going to invest in it you want to be sure that the public will support.  If you donate and it goes "boobs" up you get your money back.  Some nice donations there.  Initial surveys show she is ok to sail back to UK, which is a start.  HMS Plymouth was total disaster from start to finish, poorly managed and the bid was poorly led, which led to her demise.
Personally I hope this bears fruit, for we have few ships preserved which is a shame.

[Colin Bishop]

Yes, I have looked at the Crowdfunding page. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of preservation where possible but from what has been published this seems to be very little different to previous schemes over the years to preserve various historic vessels. They all have had the best of intentions and they all underestimated the costs and practical difficulties, not to mention the finances.

Sea Scouts might well be OK with the existing berthing arrangements on board but I cannot conceive how hotel facilities might be incorporated into the ship, nor a restaurant. The only large space aboard is the hangar, and from visits to comparable ships I would think that there are so many activities you could accommodate in the available space which is enclosed and without natural light. Why would people want to hold conferences there when there is an almost unlimited supply of conference facilities in nearby London hotels with better facilities.

Can you actually get Hermes through the Thames Barrier? The Invincibles were a squeeze and had to be moored mid stream which meant access only by boat. Moor the ship further downstream and she is well out of the centre of the city assuming a berth can be found.

None of this detail is apparent from the Crowdfunding page. It's all optimistic aspirations.

Colin

[Rob47]

Colin, thanks for looking at the site, I think it is quite feasible to do the alterations, the Director naval disposal showed me how it could be done, not cheap mind :)  It seem Mumbai are now looking at doing the same thing, although they have muttered about it for ages.
It seems the old may yet survive,.


Bob

[McGherkin]

The Navy can barely run a carrier, let alone a group of volunteers or even small businesses.

[Rob47]

Not so small

[kinmel]

It won't happen, politically impossible.

The Government will not allow an aircraft carrier run by enthusiasts be berthed in the U.K., whilst at the same time HMS' Target 1 and Target 2 just rust away without ever having had an aircraft on board.

[Colin Bishop]

Not quite true,

There were several Merlins to mark the occasion aboard when QE arrived.

Colin

[Rob47]

It won't happen, politically impossible.

The Government will not allow an aircraft carrier run by enthusiasts be berthed in the U.K., whilst at the same time HMS' Target 1 and Target 2 just rust away without ever having had an aircraft on board.

So what about HMS Cavalier, Belfast, Caroline and the monitor, all run by volunteers.  If purchased she would be a private vessel. I fail to see the political issue you seem to think is there.


Don't think they are "rusting" and QE has had aircraft on here for some time, more to come in 2018, looking good


Bob

[dodes]

Looking at photo's in the local press her flight deck is showing some good signs of rust especially around the elephant feet securing pads. But then when we had R N Dockyards Rosyth was bottom of the list. But what Colin was saying is the Government/MoD will give no help or incentive. We the country must make choices and Belfast is a better bet than Hermes, remember they tried to get the last Black Swan class sloop back from Egypt and the money was not forth coming.

[Rob47]

Yes but looking at images the rust is no more than you would expect, from a workup.
Agree MOD/Gov will be useless until she comes home then they will be all over it claiming  how they helped.
Belfast is already well looked after, so will wish him the best of luck


Bob

[Colin Bishop]

I did an article on Belfast for Model Boats a few years back and had the opportunity to discuss her with the people responsible for marketing her. I have also written articles on Portsmouth and Chatham Historic Dockyards and the Submarine Museum at Gosport and talked to their PR people.

In every case it was stressed to me how finely balanced the finances are of these historic sites and the preserved vessels within them. It is a real uphill effort to make ends meet which requires constant promotional events to try and balance the budgets which is why you can get married aboard HMS Warrior.

All of these ships, despite being apparently well located and established, are in fact on financial knife edges which require constant efforts to keep the funding rolling in. None of them are really safe and I don't think people appreciate that.

This is the environment in which it is proposed to introduce Hermes and is why I think it will be difficult, if not impossible to run her as a going concern.

Colin

[Paul Swainson]

Then please explain why it is the the USA are able to save some of their very large capital ship put them on display around the county.  I feel the reason being put up for not keeping any of our old capital ships is we just don't want the hassle and spend money.  The days of being a nation of builders and engineers and retaining our work have long gone for the cushy life with no risks .

[victorian]

I visited the U boat at the Museum of Science in Chicago and the display around the boat was outstanding except for a minor issue.

Would that 'minor issue' be that in an exhibition hall dedicated to the "The Battle of the Atlantic" and the capture of a German submarine with Enigma machine there's no reference anywhere to the Royal Navy, let alone HMS Bulldog? The attendants (mostly ex-servicemen) must be thoroughly fed up with Brits complaining about this.


But don't let that put anyone off visiting: It's a superb display of an authentic WW2 U-boat, the story of the salvage of which is in itself quite remarkable.


And on the subject of indoor submarines, a British built pre-war submarine can be found in the new and quite superb Maritime Museum in Tallinn, Estonia.

[Colin Bishop]

Then please explain why it is the the USA are able to save some of their very large capital ship put them on display around the county.

Simple, the USA remains more militaristic then the UK and have a closer relationship with their armed forces - all those guns?!

You don't have the same awareness or appreciation of history in general in the UK, the majority of the population are simply not interested which is why the crowdfunding of Hermes attracted so little support. Plus of course our 'history' goes back to the stone age with artifacts and sites covering thousands of years. In the USA their own 'history' only goes back to the revolution, around 250 years - before that it was British & French history. The the USA is a much biggger nation that us with comparitively far less historical stuff to preserve.

I believe the support for preserving the larger warships in the USA owes a lot to people who were former crew members and who give financial and other support to them. In recent years the finances have become more difficult as these old sailors die off and it is often difficult to secure public funding from their home states. An additional problem is that as the ships age their condition deteriorates significantly. Metal corrodes and there is only so much that can be done to prevent it - look up the recent efforts to preserve the battleship USS Texas for example.

All this is a very good reason for looking after and preserving our models in museum collections as they are the only 3D representations of so many famous vessels of the past. Unfortunately most museums don't seem to appreciate this, being in favour of ephemeral audio visual presentations to try and capture the short attention span of today's millenials and their offspring!

Colin

[Plastic - RIP]

Spot on. The US are very much more into their recent military history. Vets wear their uniforms with pride. UK sheeple are trained to think anything to do with guns and military are to be looked down on. If you go to any UK museum, they are dumbed down so that the few seconds of attention span of the average 16-year old school party is never challenged.

[victorian]

Interesting about the Texas Colin. And we should take an interest in her future too - as the only surviving Dreadnought she speaks loudly to us as well. "The finest British battleship in America!". When I was building Mars, I found the answers to many questions that could not be answered from drawings by pacing her decks.