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[mudway]

Having decided to build a Denny SGB, I have had a look through the various plans and configurations and decided on their final fit out. John Lambert mentions that two 6 pdrs were carried and Lenton has the final armament as one 3”, two 6 pdrs and three twin 20 mm oerlikons.

As there is no mention of the .5s carried in the turrets, it could be that a twin 20 mm replaced each turret the way some Fairmile Ds had single 20 mm replace their turrets. In this case the third twin could be near the transom replacing the single 20 mm which some carried. I assume the two 6 pdrs would be on main deck level and the 3” aft of the funnel.

The catch now is that I cannot find any photos or plans to confirm they were so fitted and what the layout was.

Has anyone seen a drawing or photo post 1943 with 6 pdrs mounted?

[gingyer]

From all the pictures I have seen the .50s in the turrets were always there.


Normally forward of the bridge was the 6lb gun
immediate behind the funnel was an Oerlikon
on the main deck behind the superstructure was the 3" gun
on the stern the last oerlikon with a protective screen for the gunner
right on the bow was another gun I thought it was a 2lb gun maybe it is a 6lb gun 


don't know if this picture helps...


https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205120422


it would be a real tight squeeze to fit in more weapons I would think, especially a 6lb gun

[TailUK]

Documenting the armament of the SGB is hindered by an error that been perpetuated in several publications; " two twin Oerlikons in powered turrets either side of the bridge" this is not correct, the Twin 0.5 inch Vickers in gun tubs were a standard feature of SGBs and Fairmiles and didn't change. From stern to bow a accurate weapons fit would have been a single Oerlikon in a unpowered Mark 7 mount, A QF 6 pdr Mark IIa, a single Oerlikon Mark 7 mounted aft of the funnel.  Twin Vickers 0.5 inch HMGs in 2 gun tubs either side of the bridge.  A single 6 pdr Mark IIa on the Forecastle and a single 2pdr QF Mark VIII in the forepeak (although this could have been replaced with a single Oerlikon). 

[longshanks]

Whilst I would agree with you re twin 20mm powered turrets never being fitted. I would disagree with you on twin 0.5" turrets being swapped for single 20mm Oerlikon. This was not uncommon  on the Fairmile Ds in the Med. They were single manual mounts although one is recorded has trying a twin mount, the recoil caused problems
The pic shows MGB658 alongside in Bastia  fitted with a single 20mm iwo of 0.5 cals (IWM)

[TailUK]

Damn! that MGB is well tooled up! A 2pdr Pom Pom on the forecastle and single oerlikons either side of the bridge.  Then, a twin Oerlikon powered mount and a 3 pdr midships.  I'm willing to bet there was another 2pdr Pom Pom or a twin Oerlikon mounted aft.  I'm not sure but I think there are single Vickers K guns under canvas cover on the Bridge wings as well.  Someone wasn't much bothered about vibration.
I think we'll have to differ on the Vickers 0.5 inch question.  I don't ever remember a SGB picture that didn't show the Vickers Mark V mounts fitted to them.  Of course there were only 7 SGBs and one was sunk early in her career.  The Mark V was a common feature on Fairmiles but as the MGB pictures shows they were often modified and up-armed.  The twin Vickers 0.5 wasn't weapon to be trifled with, people tend to forget that it's same calibre as a Browning M2 HMG

[mudway]

Thanks for the info. I partly resolved the problem this morning when I was going through the British Warship Design book by the RINA. There is an article on coastal forces in it with the comments about SGB armament attached. The twin 20mm would have been mounted similarly to the Med Fairmile Ds.


The problem as I said is finding any photo of these craft after early 1943. I’m still hunting for any photos. I can believe 6 pdrs being mounted and may be a twin at the stern. However, the “full conversion” I am dubious about.
 
There is a book by the captain of MGB 658 called Gunboat 658 in it he describes the fitting of the single 20 mms. The decks had to be strengthened to accommodate them and one vessel was fitted with two more single 20 mms aft of the first two. They didn’t last long as the vibration when firing was so much that accurate aiming was impossible. Lambert has a drawing of her in his Coastal Forces book.

[gingyer]

The Fairmile D with the RAF were they not armed with 3x Oerlikons
1 on the stern and 1 each side of the bridge???


The SGB design was that maybe a original design drawing??
Perhaps after a review they reduced it to 1 6lb gun?

[mudway]

A twin on the stern and two singles on the fore deck.

[TailUK]

Thanks for the info. I partly resolved the problem this morning when I was going through the British Warship Design book by the RINA. There is an article on coastal forces in it with the comments about SGB armament attached. The twin 20mm would have been mounted similarly to the Med Fairmile Ds.


The problem as I said is finding any photo of these craft after early 1943. I’m still hunting for any photos. I can believe 6 pdrs being mounted and may be a twin at the stern. However, the “full conversion” I am dubious about.
 
There is a book by the captain of MGB 658 called Gunboat 658 in it he describes the fitting of the single 20 mms. The decks had to be strengthened to accommodate them and one vessel was fitted with two more single 20 mms aft of the first two. They didn’t last long as the vibration when firing was so much that accurate aiming was impossible. Lambert has a drawing of her in his Coastal Forces book.

Don't forget the SGBs were steel construction so mounting heavier weapons would have been easier.  I agree about the actuality of the drawn weapons fit, it may have been a proposal and not actually implemented and of course there is little or no photographic data of this or the re-fit to fast minesweepers carried out in time for D-Day.

[mudway]

It seems for some reason, no photos exist or have been found post early 1943. All I can find out about the last conversion was that they only carried 4 single 20 mm oerlikons. Peter Scott only mentions the .5 vickers and 3" in Eye of the Wind. I'll have to find my Narrow Seas and see if anything in it.

[BarryM]

Some (all?) early units had a Holman Projector on a bandstand aft of the bridge.
BM

[mudway]

All I have been able to find in a week is one picture dated 1944 of HMS Bee with a Denny in the background apparently not in camouflage.

[BarryM]

No mention here, so far, that some mounted a Rolls-Royce 20mm as the aftermost gun.
BM

[TailUK]

All I have been able to find in a week is one picture dated 1944 of HMS Bee with a Denny in the background apparently not in camouflage.

Interesting picture!  What was source? 

[BarryM]

Mudway,
When I was building my SGB, I collected a large number of photos from various sources plus some written info. Some of the photos are annotated as taken in 1942, others are unmarked but they do give some idea of the variety ofarmament. I sold a collection of SGB plans on this Forum a while back that also gave details of armament. If the buyer puts his hand up, you may glean more info from them.
If you wish, I can send you copies of the info I still have.
Regards,
BM

[mudway]

Thanks Barry.

[mudway]

Interesting picture!  What was source?

A book on the RN at Portland. The photo was credited to a Geoffrey Hudson.

[BarryM]

Thanks Barry.

Is that a 'Thanks for your offer' or a 'Thanks and yes please'?  If the latter, PM me your email address, please.
BM

[mudway]

Sorry, thanks & yes please.

[BarryM]

Info sent.
BM