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Author Topic: Sail servos  (Read 2299 times)

Misterbee

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Sail servos
« on: August 31, 2019, 08:03:18 pm »

No such thing as a dumb question, correct?


Here goes;


Is the number of turns on a multi turn sail winch achieved by electronics or gearing?
I.e. if I use only 20% movement on a 5 turn sail winch, am I getting more usable torque due to increased gearing, or just the same, assuming it's linear?


I have a number of 4 and 5 turn winches that I can programme down to 2 or 3 turns, save buying a specific 2 turn winch.
Regards,
Brian.
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JimG

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2019, 09:08:08 am »

Reducing the number of turns will be done electronically. Changing the gearing would probably need a strip down or a complicated gearbox, much easier (and cheaper) to adjust the electronics.
Jim
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2019, 10:08:16 am »

Is a normal servo, there is an electronics board that looks at both the signal coming in from the receiver, which is your means of telling it where to point, and the position sensing pot, which tells it where it is pointing.  If they disagree, it tells the motor to drive.  The motor drives its gearbox which in turn drives the pot until they agree.  Co-incidentally, there is an arm attached to the gear driving the pot, which is what we are usually interested in.
In a winch, there is all the stuff mentioned above, but between the output gear that used to drive the pot directly and the winches pot, there is another gearbox.  This slows down the drive to the pot so that for the same swept distance, the output shaft has to turn several times.  In all of the early proportional winches, rather than a gearbox, a 10 turn pot was used.  A normal pot generally uses the middle 1/3 f its sweep, 1/3 of 10 turns gives 3 and a bit, hence many winches were "three turn".  The different turn winches available use different gearing between output gear and pot.
Programmable winches, OTOH, do it electronically, but do have the effect that if you reduce the travel, you also reduce the work done end to end.  The motor doesn't magically produce more power to make up for the shortened run.
Using 20% of its available travel means that you have bought 5 times as much winch as you needed, assuming that it both works and survives.  Reducing travel by programming is OK for small adjustments, but large adjustments keeping the same winch are better done by rearranging the string, paying close attention to the travel distance needed between the boom point and bridle ring, and their positions on the boom and over the deck.  And whether or not to run the line through a doubling block to lose boom travel while gaining lots of torque.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2021, 01:39:45 pm »

I've just had cause to go winch shopping.  As ever, looking for a lot of bang for my buck.
While shopping, I have noticed one or two "programmable" winches that have no corresponding program card.  What this means to me is that if an actual 6 turns is wanted, I will need to have a transmitter that supports an increase in travel by a sizeable percentage.
The sellers of such items are usually just parroting what is in the manufacturers literature without understanding what is being said.  It is, of course, important to know what a winch is capable of before buying, so clarity helps here.
So, is a "6 turn programmable" winch really a 3 and a half turn winch that can be caused to travel further by tweaking the end stop points on the transmitter?

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tigertiger

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2021, 04:27:52 pm »

In addition to what has already been said, and from distant memory. The servos I bought in the past also had a torque figure. The radius of the sail winch drum is also important. The bigger the drum , the more torque is needed, but also the more of the cord is wound in/out for every given turn.
Adjusting the winch to a higher number of turns would allow you to use a smaller drum thus giving you more pulling power, but the sheets would be hauled in at a lower speed.
If you wanted a very fast response to sheets in/out (e.g. if you are racing) then a bigger drum would give you this, but need a torquier servo, a smaller number of turns would allow you to stop before over pulling the sheets. Which would be wasted time, energy, and more potential for damage.
This was my understanding, but what do I know.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2021, 04:58:22 pm »

Yes the commonest drum winding diameters seem to be either 25mm or 30mm, give or take a bit.  It would be nice if manufacturers and/or sellers would make this information easier to spot.  A bigger drum, for a given number of turns, gives more travel, maybe faster, but with a corresponding loss of torque.
Much the same with an arm - the longer the arm, the more travel, but the less torque is available.  The "Kg" figure is always very prominent, the "cm" less so in advertising.  If nothing else, having the information on show might reduce the idea that magic is involved.
The present refurb/update is an old yacht about 1M long, but with a lack of space for mounting stuff like a winch where I want it, hence the shopping.  There is a standard size, but digital, winch which looks good, but the description of "6 turns, programmable" is less than helpful.  A very similar one, has, as its description "25T".  That is useful as a description of the number of teeth on the output shaft, but the (very major) seller (whose radios I do like) can't be bothered to say what turns can be expected in use.  An enquiry on their site brought out the information "4 turns".  But not from the company, from a passing customer.
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roycv

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2021, 01:12:25 am »

Howes sell standard size servos with winch drums and they sell them as 1.2.3 or 4 turn winches.  Is that set by the pot as they all look much the same size which does not suggest different gear ratios.  I am using 2 turn ones which work well for a small 36 inch (scale) yacht but not enough for a 36R RC one.
regards
Roy
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tigertiger

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2021, 02:46:33 am »

Howes sell standard size servos with winch drums and they sell them as 1.2.3 or 4 turn winches.  Is that set by the pot as they all look much the same size which does not suggest different gear ratios.  I am using 2 turn ones which work well for a small 36 inch (scale) yacht but not enough for a 36R RC one.
regards
Roy
 


You have probably already done this, you can increase the length of pull by having a secondary anchor point inside the hull to double up the pull (may not be double, I have never checked). I have put up a pic.

If you almost have enough pull, a bigger drum will do it, at the cost of some torque. I have seen aftermarket drums of different sizes. Watch out for number of teeth or other compatibility issues. I once switched a Tamiya servo for a Hitec, using the same sail arm. The tooth number was the same, but the materials (plastic vs metal) and patterns of the teeth were not compatible. In a short time the Tamiya teeth had become worn by the metal teeth on the winch, not visible to the naked eye, but the teeth slipped under load. The Hitec drum was made of a tougher plastic.


Failing that, it looks like a new servo, which could be expensive.
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roycv

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2021, 09:00:57 am »

Hi TT sorry did not explain my self, the 'not enough for a 36R' meant the winch was just not powerful enough to pull in that amount of sail area.  How ever nice drawing and I use the pulley system on a sail arm, halves the torque but doubles the throw.
I have the 2 turn winch on a set of Bella sails in a small yacht which works very nicely and the Bella has 360 sq inches of sail area.
regards
Roy
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tigertiger

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2021, 09:28:00 am »

Yes roycv, once you start getting into bigger sail areas you need more torque. The winches start getting bigger and more expensive. I have used Hitec HS BB (ball bearing) winches, and they were cheap, but now they are discontinued I think.

You are also correct in pointing out the pulley system is for sail arms. Mae culpa.

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roycv

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2021, 09:47:54 am »

Hi TT I have a selection of the Hitec big winches not yet used one arm and two winches which are almost surplus as I find it easier to run small yachts now.  P.M. me if desperate!

As far as sail arms go I have used a hi torque metal geared servo now much cheaper with a servo extender and this gives 170 degrees movement with a home made extension arm.  That comes in at about £12 in UK.
regards
Roy
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Sail servos
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2021, 09:53:33 am »

Howes sell standard size servos with winch drums and they sell them as 1.2.3 or 4 turn winches.  Is that set by the pot as they all look much the same size which does not suggest different gear ratios.  I am using 2 turn ones which work well for a small 36 inch (scale) yacht but not enough for a 36R RC one.
regards
Roy
Yes, they are different gearboxes in the same outer case.  The same gearing between motor and output spindle, different gearing between spindle and sense pot.
The 6 turn variety of that (standard) size is capable of handling larger sails, the excess travel being "lost" by having the doubler on deck.  This increases the torque, but at the cost of speed.  Not generally approved of by racers.  In each case, it is the same motor running off the same battery, so it can only provide the same power.  The different gearing just applies that power over different times and distances.
The attraction of the "6 turn digital programmable" winch is the increased pull in a standard size box, but I still need to know whether the 6 turns is as supplied, or the result of programming the device, or the result of using a programmable transmitter to extend the throw.  The advertising leaves this for the purchaser to find out after purchase.  Personally, I would prefer to know beforehand so as to know whether or not I should re-arrange my project to accommodate a larger more traditional winch.
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