Topic: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C (Read 16695 times)

frogman3 · « **Reply #50 on:** August 27, 2020, 07:54:09 pm »

HI ALL well just to let you know that the add on failsafe did not work

chris

unbuiltnautilus · « **Reply #51 on:** August 27, 2020, 07:57:07 pm »

That was to be expected, sorry.

frogman3 · « **Reply #52 on:** August 27, 2020, 08:03:03 pm »

Quote from: unbuiltnautilus on August 27, 2020, 07:57:07 pm

That was to be expected, sorry.

HI you have nothing to be sorry about
all best
chris

unbuiltnautilus · « **Reply #53 on:** August 27, 2020, 09:36:19 pm »

Right. Lucky that I had a T6L knocking about! I have just had a play with the set. Using three Futaba servos and a Viper 10 Marine in ch3. Using a 6v 1600mAh pack to drive everything and an RS380 motor for load.
I can confirm that all channels except ch3 have a 'last valid signal hold' function on loss of signal. So wherever they last were, they stay there!
Ch3 sets its failsafe position on the turn on of the transmitter, the position based on wherever the stick is when the set turns on. The problem is the ratchet, it is not a precise instrument for repeatedly setting a precise failsafe point. So, while testing the system, turning on and off repeatedly, toggling the throttle in between to make sure everything is working, the stick does not return to precisely the same spot every time. So on turn off and failsafe, sometimes the motors creep a bit, as described previously.
If you repeatedly turn off and on without wiggling the sticks, the Viper speed control sits there and does nothing every time. So my thoughts, as mentioned previously, either source a spring return kit for the left side stick on the transmitter (might be a bit of a challenge, all the brainy people at Ripmax are currently furloughed!). Or file a slightly deeper vee in the ratchet inside the set. This needs to be in exactly the right place, dead centre on the throttle range. Best way to mark this is with a bit of tippex on the side of the ratchet, then mark with a pencil where the metal spring arm touches. You could lock the stick off in neutral with a big blob of Blutac on the outside face just to be sure.
Done right this will give you a positive position for your stick every time it turns on. This will set the failsafe in the right place every time you turn on. What it doesn't do is explain why your system keeps going into failsafe in the first place. It would be a good idea to see if you can trace the problem and solve it, rather than rely on the failsafe to get you out of a jam every time.

frogman3 · « **Reply #54 on:** August 27, 2020, 10:13:51 pm »

THANKS i may try that or go back to 40 meg
chris

frogman3 · « **Reply #55 on:** August 28, 2020, 08:39:15 am »

Quote from: DaveM on August 27, 2020, 07:05:37 pm

I've prepared a note which might help explain failsafe. I've tried to attach it as a txt file but the results were unusable, so if you'd like a copy then please PM me with your E-Mail address and I can forward it as a doc file.
Dave M

HI Dave many thanks for your email an yes it does exsplain a lot about this failsafe an cheers for sending it
chris

frogman3 · « **Reply #56 on:** August 28, 2020, 08:55:29 am »

AN HI again guys well i treid out my old 40 meg on my model with my old same model failsafe as the new one i bought yesterday an the model works perfect when i switched off the T/X the red indicator came on in the old failsafe with tha 40 meg but if i remember rightly i think the reason i bought this new 2.4 ghz was that the old 40meg was havin range problems so i will see what happens when i go back to my local model shop where i bought the new FAILSAFE yesterday an see what they say as in the failsafe instruckions it say that it is ajustable by a small screw but i dont want to mess around with it in case i mess it up then i wont be able to get my money back so its up to them
all best all
chris

frogman3 · « **Reply #57 on:** August 28, 2020, 11:32:44 am »

HI again guys well went an had a word with my model shop an they treid it out an they said its to do with the R/X FAILSAFE is canncellin the new Failsafe out but its as one of you guys said as its on the throttle ratchet if im not at the dead same point when ever i switch on the R/X IT IS CONFUSEIN the R/X FAILSAFE so they gave me my dosh bacK for the new F/S an said it needs to have in the T/X ON THE THROTTLE a spring to get it to dead centre so then the FAILSAFE should work an said you seem to have loss of signal problem WHICH on a 2.4 gig i herd you wont get this problem but well i have an i said yes as that is it so they sold me a mountin an a spring to put it in myself an i will see how it goes on that well thats as far as ive got will let you guys know what happens if i can do it
chris

justboatonic · « **Reply #58 on:** August 28, 2020, 12:03:23 pm »

Quote from: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 11:32:44 am

HI again guys well went an had a word with my model shop an they treid it out an they said its to do with the R/X FAILSAFE is canncellin the new Failsafe out but its as one of you guys said as its on the throttle ratchet if im not at the dead same point when ever i switch on the R/X IT IS CONFUSEIN the R/X FAILSAFE so they gave me my dosh bacK for the new F/S an said it needs to have in the T/X ON THE THROTTLE a spring to get it to dead centre so then the FAILSAFE should work an said you seem to have loss of signal problem WHICH on a 2.4 gig i herd you wont get this problem but well i have an i said yes as that is it so they sold me a mountin an a spring to put it in myself an i will see how it goes on that well thats as far as ive got will let you guys know what happens if i can do it
chris

I personally dont see how a rachet or spring on the throttle makes any difference. As Ive said before, the radio doesnt have a full fail safe system. It is a safe start system. The User Manual states on P6 says not to switch off the Tx first as this will make the model uncontrollable. This is good advice but re inforces the 'fail safe' isnt setting any servo(s) to a pre determined position.
It's possible the set has a fault if there is a signal loss problem but again, it would be unusual. Im more inclined to think the additional fail safe was causing a conflict rather than signal loss.
What Rx are you using, the supplied R3106GF?

frogman3 · « **Reply #59 on:** August 28, 2020, 12:10:51 pm »

Quote from: justboatonic on August 28, 2020, 12:03:23 pm

I personally dont see how a rachet or spring on the throttle makes any difference. As Ive said before, the radio doesnt have a full fail safe system. It is a safe start system. The User Manual states on P6 says not to switch off the Tx first as this will make the model uncontrollable. This is good advice but re inforces the 'fail safe' isnt setting any servo(s) to a pre determined position.
It's possible the set has a fault if there is a signal loss problem but again, it would be unusual. Im more inclined to think the additional fail safe was causing a conflict rather than signal loss.
What Rx are you using, the supplied R3106GF?

HI [size=78%]justboatonic YES the R3106GF [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]chris[/size]

justboatonic · « **Reply #60 on:** August 28, 2020, 01:15:07 pm »

If you have any signal loss during operation as suggested by the model shop, the Tx and Rx led should indicate this. On the Rx this would be a solid red led. It's not clear from the User Manual how this is shown on the Tx.
Id suggest trying the fail safe by first moving the throttle trim to full down then the throttle stick at full down and switch on the Tx then the Rx. Note, if your esc has forwards and reverse, you may need to recalibrate this if the throttle trim is set to fully down but see how it goes first as is.

frogman3 · « **Reply #61 on:** August 28, 2020, 02:53:08 pm »

Quote from: justboatonic on August 28, 2020, 01:15:07 pm

If you have any signal loss during operation as suggested by the model shop, the Tx and Rx led should indicate this. On the Rx this would be a solid red led. It's not clear from the User Manual how this is shown on the Tx.
Id suggest trying the fail safe by first moving the throttle trim to full down then the throttle stick at full down and switch on the Tx then the Rx. Note, if your esc has forwards and reverse, you may need to recalibrate this if the throttle trim is set to fully down but see how it goes first as is.

HI REGARDS signal loss its ok when its nr the T/X but the signal loss happens when on the pond about 60 to 100ft away an its impossble to see whats happening to the R/X an what colour as you say green for ok an red for signal loss is happening in the ship an regards the T/X HOW IT SHOWS batt state is a bright red led AN IF LOW POWER i think it flashes as the instuctions is pretty vauge on this an must admit this is the poorest idea to show T/X POWER as i always liked the gauge an neddle to show how much power is left but thats how futaba have done it poor show indeed
anyway cheers for your help an i'll see how things go
chris

RST · « **Reply #62 on:** August 28, 2020, 03:53:16 pm »

Think you need to take a step back and take a breath. If you are having these problems at a certain range why not do a range check? Presumably you're not sailing entirely by yourself (maybe you are) but surely it's feasible to have one person with the tx with another at the model checking the functions or looking at the rx. Not exactly the most exciting exercise but not exactly hard to do. It might not manifest itself doing that, but it's a pretty standard thing to try.

...I still think ratchet throttle sticks create more trouble than good to us, but that's just my opinion.

justboatonic · « **Reply #63 on:** August 28, 2020, 04:10:30 pm »

Quote from: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 02:53:08 pm

HI REGARDS signal loss its ok when its nr the T/X but the signal loss happens when on the pond about 60 to 100ft away an its impossble to see whats happening to the R/X an what colour as you say green for ok an red for signal loss is happening in the ship an regards the T/X HOW IT SHOWS batt state is a bright red led AN IF LOW POWER i think it flashes as the instuctions is pretty vauge on this an must admit this is the poorest idea to show T/X POWER as i always liked the gauge an neddle to show how much power is left but thats how futaba have done it poor show indeed
anyway cheers for your help an i'll see how things go
chris

There's clearly something wrong here because this is a radio that can be used in RC aircraft so should have a greater range than 100 feet.

Im wondering if the Tx is stuck in power down or range check mode? It should reset to 'normal' mode every time you switch on though.
This Tx is designed to work on 4 AA dry cell batteries. These have a higher nominal voltage than rechargables. Are you using dry cells or rechargables? If using rechargables, they may have insufficient power to reliably operate the Tx.

I used to have a Futaba Medallion years ago and the battery meter wouldnt budge if 8 rechargable cells were used instead of dry cells.

frogman3 · « **Reply #64 on:** August 28, 2020, 04:22:41 pm »

Quote from: RST on August 28, 2020, 03:53:16 pm

Think you need to take a step back and take a breath. If you are having these problems at a certain range why not do a range check? Presumably you're not sailing entirely by yourself (maybe you are) but surely it's feasible to have one person with the tx with another at the model checking the functions or looking at the rx. Not exactly the most exciting exercise but not exactly hard to do. It might not manifest itself doing that, but it's a pretty standard thing to try.

...I still think ratchet throttle sticks create more trouble than good to us, but that's just my opinion.

HI RST yes you are right about havin a rest as thats what im gonna do as up to this point im sick of hearing the word FAIL SAFE an no i dont sail on my own as my missus helps me to lift norfolk in an out of the pond as she is 6ft long an fairly hevty an ive done this range checkin before an all ok but for some reason i still have the rouge runaway prob maybe as been said perhaps the T/X OR R/X is faulty i dont know but havin a rest from it an doin some building on my tiger cheers
chris

C-3PO · « **Reply #65 on:** August 28, 2020, 04:54:37 pm »

Hi Chris,

I am sure this has been very frustrating - can I check is the receiver you are using a Futaba R3106GF?

According to this chart the Futaba 6L is for use as an "Air system" only - not sure if this relates to the technical spec or the fact that the stick may not be centre sprung.

And this link suggest that the R3106GF receiver is a high voltage version - the 2 voltage ranges are confusing - but it suggests (I think) that 4.0v is lowest operating - could the RX voltage be an issue

RATED VOLTAGE:
DC 4.8V~7.4V

VOLTAGE RANGE:
DC 4.0V~8.4V

https://futabausa.com/product/r3106gf/

PS No mention on this post about FS's :)

************************************************************

** UPDATE ** - Assuming Rx is R3106GF - This link to the RX manual states RX voltage 4.8 to 7.4V

http://manuals.hobbico.com/fut/r3106gf-manual.pdf

************************************************************

So it is possible that everything is working fine TX<>RX - it may simply be that the RX does not have the right power supply!!!!!!

Regards
C-3PO

frogman3 · « **Reply #66 on:** August 28, 2020, 04:59:28 pm »

Quote from: justboatonic on August 28, 2020, 04:10:30 pm

There's clearly something wrong here because this is a radio that can be used in RC aircraft so should have a greater range than 100 feet.

Im wondering if the Tx is stuck in power down or range check mode? It should reset to 'normal' mode every time you switch on though.
This Tx is designed to work on 4 AA dry cell batteries. These have a higher nominal voltage than rechargables. Are you using dry cells or rechargables? If using rechargables, they may have insufficient power to reliably operate the Tx.

I used to have a Futaba Medallion years ago and the battery meter wouldnt budge if 8 rechargable cells were used instead of dry cells.

HI IM useing 4 double AA NEW DURACELL batts an i used a batt checker before i installed them an i did this correctly makin sure the batts are the right way so they should not be a prolem an when i go again up the pond as its a 40 mile round trip an nice wheather i'll do a range check again with the missus tellin me if things work ok from one end of the pond to the other an as you say this is meant for a plane so the signal should carry about a half a mile or more not just a 100 ft or so but now until i can get up the pond again all this is guess work but many thanks all you guys for your help as im a lot wiser now than at the start of this thread an ive never had a 2.4 gig R/C before an i must admit im not impressed
cheers chris

frogman3 · « **Reply #67 on:** August 28, 2020, 05:33:37 pm »

Quote from: C-3PO on August 28, 2020, 04:54:37 pm

Hi Chris,

I am sure this has been very frustrating - can I check is the receiver you are using a Futaba R3106GF?

According to this chart the Futaba 6L is for use as an "Air system" only - not sure if this relates to the technical spec or the fact that the stick may not be centre sprung.

And this link suggest that the R3106GF receiver is a high voltage version - the 2 voltage ranges are confusing - but it suggests (I think) that 4.0v is lowest operating - could the RX voltage be an issue

RATED VOLTAGE:
DC 4.8V~7.4V

VOLTAGE RANGE:
DC 4.0V~8.4V

https://futabausa.com/product/r3106gf/

PS No mention on this post about FS's :)

Regards
C-3PO

HI C-3PO AN [size=78%]frustrating[/size][size=78%] god im nr bald through pullin my hair out in clumps lol over this an yes thats the R/X is correct as with this troble im also havin trouble with this pc as it was printin ok at the start then it goes an prints like its doin now aaaaaaaaaahhhhggghhhh LOL in the last couple of yrs eletronics as been my bugbear not sure what you mean by [/size][size=78%]could the RX voltage be an issue as its running off a 6v REDUCER FROM A 12V BATT mind you its shares with some other workin features now you have said this i wonder if i would be better off with the r/x havin just its own batt as that maybe the prolem but ive got a digital meter fitted tellin me the voltage bein fed to the R/X AN it 6v but as its sharein when i use the other items perhaps the R/X VOLTAGE DROPS as other units are takin their supply i think someone elese mentioned this but the penny dint drop but its a fair sized batt at 3ah an this is a 12 v batt but its goin through a 6v reducer to power the R/X OH GOD THIS MAY BE THE PROB next sail i will remove the fuses that power all the other units an power just the R/X YOU MAY HAVE FOUND OUT MY PROBLEM I MUST ADMIT I HAVE A COMPLEX SHIP BUT IT WAS NEVER A PROBLEM ON 40 MEG AN IVE USED THIS LAYOUT FOR YRS but as this now 2.4 gig it may play a big part OH WELL I LIVE AN LEARN THIS MAYBE MY FAULT SORRY GUYS but that what im gonna do nxt sailin oh well CHEERS GUYS IM BEGINING TO THINK I OUGHT TO PACK THIS IN LOL[/size]
[size=78%]CHRIS[/size]

frogman3 · « **Reply #68 on:** August 28, 2020, 06:03:02 pm »

Well guys AFTER that relavation i think what i will do is leave all the workin features goin but fit in a 4 x double AA BATT PACK for just the R/X alone an alter the R/X aireal so its pointin upwards out of the deck an see what that does an leave the T/X alone for now god it could be so many things as this is a complex model
chris

HMS Invisible · « **Reply #69 on:** August 28, 2020, 06:05:52 pm »

Quote

Do not use a dry cell battery with this system

Why not just try a 4.8v(4 cell) or 6v(5 cell) NiCD or NiMH pack?

frogman3 · « **Reply #70 on:** August 28, 2020, 06:26:48 pm »

Quote from: microgyros on August 28, 2020, 06:05:52 pm

Why not just try a 4.8v(4 cell) or 6v(5 cell) NiCD or NiMH pack?

HI i dont think there will be enough power with just them batts as ive got about 7 servos goin an i herd dont know if correct but a servo will take power even when its not goin but thanks for your instrest an comment but as i said i think this maybe my fault but at least its givin all you guys something to think an talk about hasnt it an im a lot wizer now than before
all best chris

malcolmfrary · « **Reply #71 on:** August 28, 2020, 06:32:19 pm »

Quote from: microgyros on August 28, 2020, 06:05:52 pm

Why not just try a 4.8v(4 cell) or 6v(5 cell) NiCD or NiMH pack?

Not knowing what's plugged into the radio, a 6 volt radio battery might not be a good idea. Some items do not like more than 5 volts. If receiver power is from a BEC, either a discrete one or one in an ESC, voltage should be adequate and stable. Only caveat there is if a lot of stuff is plugged into the receiver, the load might be too much for it.
The most common cause of range problems on 2G4, apart from "park flyer" ses, is poor siting of the important bit of the aerial. On the lower frequencies, it was difficult to obstruct all of the receiver aerial, on 2G4, it is very easy to hide the entire active length.

A servo takes some power when not doing anything, but not much at all. Several operating at the same time, guess at about 1/2 amp each. It adds up.

frogman3 · « **Reply #72 on:** August 28, 2020, 06:47:43 pm »

Quote from: malcolmfrary on August 28, 2020, 06:32:19 pm

Not knowing what's plugged into the radio, a 6 volt radio battery might not be a good idea. Some items do not like more than 5 volts. If receiver power is from a BEC, either a discrete one or one in an ESC, voltage should be adequate and stable. Only caveat there is if a lot of stuff is plugged into the receiver, the load might be too much for it.
The most common cause of range problems on 2G4, apart from "park flyer" ses, is poor siting of the important bit of the aerial. On the lower frequencies, it was difficult to obstruct all of the receiver aerial, on 2G4, it is very easy to hide the entire active length.

A servo takes some power when not doing anything, but not much at all. Several operating at the same time, guess at about 1/2 amp each. It adds up.

HI Well there is no BEC on the ESC an yes there is a fair amount of thing bein powered an all the ports on the R/X are in use an it says 4.8 to 6v for the R/X
Chris

HMS Invisible · « **Reply #73 on:** August 28, 2020, 07:07:09 pm »

Quote from: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 06:26:48 pm

HI i dont think there will be enough power with just them batts as ive got about 7 servos goin an i herd dont know if correct but a servo will take power even when its not goin but thanks for your instrest an comment but as i said i think this maybe my fault but at least its givin all you guys something to think an talk about hasnt it an im a lot wizer now than before
all best chris

There is more power capability in four AA NiCadS or four AA NiMH cells than duracell alkaline batteries. That is the reason Futaba specify not to use a dry cell pack.

HMS Invisible · « **Reply #74 on:** August 28, 2020, 07:12:49 pm »

Quote from: malcolmfrary on August 28, 2020, 06:32:19 pm

Not knowing what's plugged into the radio, a 6 volt radio battery might not be a good idea. Some items do not like more than 5 volts. If receiver power is from a BEC, either a discrete one or one in an ESC, voltage should be adequate and stable. Only caveat there is if a lot of stuff is plugged into the receiver, the load might be too much for it.
The most common cause of range problems on 2G4, apart from "park flyer" ses, is poor siting of the important bit of the aerial. On the lower frequencies, it was difficult to obstruct all of the receiver aerial, on 2G4, it is very easy to hide the entire active length.

A servo takes some power when not doing anything, but not much at all. Several operating at the same time, guess at about 1/2 amp each. It adds up.

You quoted me so I'll answer that Malcolm.
He's answered that and you possibly posted before reading.
He is fine with either a 4 or 5 cell NiMH or NiCd pack.
The four duracell cells cause the receiver brown out after 10 minutes.
An alternative is 2s Life pack or a low resistance reservoir capacitor.

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Author Topic: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C (Read 16695 times)

RST