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[Mark T]

Hi All


Well I've learnt quite a bit from making these frames but as I've started to bevel them its become apparent that I have not left enough wood on them to achieve this with any accuracy.  I have sanded too close the lines and if I couple that with some pretty inaccurate work on the band saw it pretty much makes them all scrap.


So back to the drawing board and start again but this time armed with a bit more knowledge than before.  They actually looked quite good 





I won't update this build until I catch up to where I am now as it will just be repetitive and thats no good.  Don't worry I'll be back a few weeks with hopefully a better update.  These things are sent to try us and if was that easy everyone would be doing it 


Mark 

[radiojoe]

That's a shame Mark, but remember someone who never made a mistake never made anything,    I'll be waiting for the new rib set.


Joe.

[SteamboatPhil]

We have all been there at sometime    keep going 

[Mark T]

Hi Phil and Joe - Cheers lads but luckily I actually don't see this as a set back really.  I've learnt so much and the next one's should be ok.  I've learnt that its the flat frames are the hardest to make as you can loose so many errors in the bevelled ones.  Also cumulative errors really gain pace if its started at the bottom of the boat.  For example I cut one of the frames .30mm to low on the rising wood which by the time it had been around the curves of the frame this translated into a 3mm error at the top     Its been great to have these frames and measure backwards to see my errors 


I've already run the replacement wood through the thickness sander and photocopied all of the frames again.  So it'll be less colouring and more accuracy this time 

[SailorGreg]

I'll be waiting patiently for the next exciting episode.  Such a refreshing and fascinating change from the "smother it in car body filler" school of hull building! (Nothing wrong with filler, use it myself now and again,  but fully framing a hull like this is in a different league IMHO.)

Greg

[derekwarner]

Mark..... as the angle of taper [or line] between each frame changes over a continual 2D plane between both the horizontal to the vertical, without a 3D compensated work platform......it is still up to the naked eye to achieve your intended shaping/angling/profiling of each frame


One possible alternate to this, is to maintain the dual marked paper hull profiles as you have to date, however leave the angular face of each frame as 90 degrees to the vertical and oversized.........glue each frame to the keel plate, then use a Proxxon mini electric file "Belt Sander BS/E'  fo fair in each frame from the max to the min line, which also should produce a fully profiled surface over the width of each frame


In all cases, the use of a short timber block [overlapping 2+ frames] with sandpaper used in a draw filing motion is required


Derek

[Mark T]

Hi Greg - thanks mate and I am finding it very different/difficult but enjoyable too.  I'll update this as soon as I can.


Hi Derek - Fortunately the draughtsman who drew these plans also took the time to draw all of the tapers both inside and outside on the frame templates.  This is how I know that the frames that I've already made are not good enough.  The frames have to be rough faired before they are all installed on the keel which will also require a jig to be made.  Only then can the whole hull be faired both inside and out as strength needs to be built in first.  Zoom in on the frames and you will see the fairing markings. Quite a talented draughtsman to say the least 

[Mark T]

Just a quick update!


I've now remade all 110 pieces and I'm much more happy with these ones     I've learnt a few things along the way too which is a good thing.


1.  I've changed the way I look at the wood - believe it or not a made them up as if they were metal and for some reason my accuracy improved???
2.  I thought that my previous woodwork was quite accurate - wrong     To build this ship I need to recalibrate my brain!
3.  This time I did not use the lines to mill down too.  I took the measurements off of the plan and milled to the measurements instead
4.  I've left a tiny bit on the frames so that once glued I can sand them as a complete item
5.  I noticed that frame 5 is tapered where the keelson fits into it.  I'm so glad that I saw this now and not later





I've also taken Dereks advice and bought a Proxxon BS/E sander which looks like a decent bit of kit.  I also spoke to Taranis about this purchase before buying it and between us we think it will be very useful for this build.


Now I'm saying all of this but I've not tried any parts for a fit yet.  I did check for symmetry when I was sanding them and that seemed a lot better.  So tomorrow I'll had a go at fitting and gluing this lot together.  Hopefully these one's or at least some of them will be OK


Mark

[DBS88]

Mark have been following with interest and was curious to know more about the challenge you were dealing with. Since I have not made a plank on frame boat I had a flick through Harold Underhills book and this diagram from his book will clarified what you have been doing. It now makes perfect sense as to why you were bevelling the frames.

[Mark T]

Hi DBS88 yes that picture sums it up nicely.  Fully frames ships - just like the full scale vessel are bevelled both inside and outside.  Thats one of the biggest challenges as it needs to look as good inside as outside.  There's a lot of timber to be removed after each frame is made but I need to get the frames straight first.

[Mark T]

Just another quick update


So far so good     I've glued 3 frames together and they are much better than before.  I reckon that these could be winners which is very pleasing 


Here's a few pictures of some of the floor timbers now glued together showing the transition from one frame to the next


Looking from stern to bow





Bow to stern





And the side





It's all very rough but gives an idea of how it's going.  Unfortunately I'm back to work tomorrow so its all going to have to wait until next weekend until I can get on this again


Mark

[radiojoe]

I don't know about rough it all looks rather neat to me, ahh work the modellers curse, I remember that, don't have to worry about that these days of course there is a price to pay "" AGE"" 




Joe.

[Mark T]

Thanks Joe I know all about the modellers curse     All of these parts are straight off the rough sanding using 80 grit and are as rough as a badgers........well you know what I mean     I couldn't see the point of going further if they are not correct.


They have just "clipped" together which I think is a good sign but as always I need to get to the finer sanding to see if they are up to spec.  I hope so as if not I'll have to park this build as at present I don't think I can do any better.  I can honestly say that I am at the limit of my carpentry skills and I'm ok with that.  If I need to build another boat before this then so be it - It'll be a Riva if thats the case.


Hopefully have a really positive update over the weekend 

[Mark T]

Hi All


At last some positive news - 10 of the 11 frames have turned out ok     The only reason I had to bin frame 6 was because I just sanded a little bit too much off of the bevel.  It's just one of those things as once the wood is off there's no going back unfortunately.  I'll remake that frame when I make the next batch.


So here's a stack of 10 instead of 11 frames     They are now bevelled to the drawings but the final fairing will be done once they are all installed which at this rate will be in 2025     Hopefully you can start to see the shape of the hull











I've left the top timbers slightly long as I'll trim these towards the end of the build.  I would hate to leave one accidentally short!  Although they are still a bit rough here's some pictures of how they will sit on the rising wood.  I have to say that I got some real satisfaction making these and oh they are a bit crooked as they are just balanced on my little jig that I made














So before I start on the next frames there are a couple of jobs that I still need to do on these ones.  I need to make and install the bolts that held the frames together and I've got a piece of ebony wood to make these.  I've never used ebony before so that will be a new experience but it looks beautiful and wow its heavy for its size.  I also need to cut two rebates into each frame for the lower frame spacers.


Cheers - from a very happy Mark 

[dougal99]

Really wonderful work. I salute you sir 

[radiojoe]

yeah nice job Mark, keep going mate,


Joe

[SteamboatPhil]

Looking good, ebony is a lovely wood but can be a bit tricky to work, keep going sir 

[Mark T]

Dougal, Joe and Phil thanks lads!  Its been nice to move forward a bit on this build and actually have some pieces that look ship like.


I need to make the ebony into 0.6mm bolts for scale and I've never used it before.  It actually looks too nice to cut up but hey ho......I might try and run it through a draw plate if not it's going in square.  If it won't cut that small I do have some brass but I'll let you know how I get on and thanks for the support.

[radiojoe]

Hi Mark I was wondering if you could used carbon fiber rod if the ebony fails but I think it only starts at 1mm


Joe

[Mark T]

Hi Mark I was wondering if you could used carbon fiber rod if the ebony fails but I think it only starts at 1mm


Joe

Now that's an excellent idea - I'll keep that one as my failsafe - cheers Joe 

[derekwarner]

The disadvantage of CF or brass is that conventional PVA glue would not provide an adequate bond........[even if abbraded]

I believe wire drawing plates go down to 0.26mm diameter, however these have different hole geometry to Trunnel wooden drawing plates, and 0.6mm diameter wooden pegs even in Ebony would also have high tensile, but have low shear [or splitting] strength

So whilst oversize @ a nominal 2mm diameter, pre-cut wooden toothpicks have a high shear strength, and would slurp up the PVA and not be seen when cut & shaved off


Derek

[Jerry C]

Draw plates? I googled. I understood. I love to learn something new every day and this one was before breakfast. Those frames are a work of art themselves. Well done matey.
Jerry C.

[Mark T]

Derek and Jerry thanks for the comments lads.  These bolts are simply for show as I don't need to build any strength into these frames.  Trust me I take great delight in snapping them in two when they are not right.  It takes a lot of effort to actually break them but the crack is very satisfying 


I rechecked my measurements and I'm glad that I did as these bolts need to be 0.5mm to be to scale.  Machining the one way went OK








But the other way to make it 0.5mm x 0.5mm - well what can I say.  I made a load of mess and not a lot of decent pieces.  Its just too small even for a 0.5mm wide blade in the saw.  I tried the draw plate too but the ebony didn't really like it and kept on snapping.  Talking of draw plates - the wire type that jewellers use extrudes the metal and is no good what so ever for wood.  You need a wood draw plate that cuts on the way through - here's mine with a piece of ebony sticking out that is 0.5mm in diameter and you pull it away from the engraved numbers.





So I know when I'm beaten and have taken Joe's advice.  I've ordered some 0.5mm carbon rod which will do nicely.  Upwards and onwards 


Mark

[Mark T]

The carbon rod arrived so I gave it a try and its turned out really nice     I used canopy glue to hold them in but I don't think it needed it as they were quite a tight fit..  The monograph says that there are 3 x 14mm bolts in each area where the parts overlap so thats 6 bolts for each timber.





I've also cut the notches for the floor timber chocks which are 0.5mm deep and 7mm wide





So I think I can park these frames now until installation.  I'm now going to start on the last 4 bow square frames and they are rising frames.  They are of a different construction to the frames that I've already made - a picture tells a thousand words





They also sit on the stem so the rising wood also rises with them and they sit on a mortise.  I'll be leaving the mortise out 





I've looked at the plans so many times for these 4 frames and the drawings don't quite make sense to me.  So I'm just going to have a go at building them - hopefully it will make more sense when I start cutting some wood up


Cheers Mark 

[radiojoe]

Hi Mark this all looks delightfully complicated should give the old grey matter a work out and I have to compliment you on your illustrated photos.




Joe.