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[rhavrane]

Bonjour,

Admin : I hope this is the appropriate place to insert my request, and if not, please do not hesitate to move or delete it.


For one of my 15/20 kg babies to be restored, the tug "Aggrip" which has two propeller shafts, I am looking for two steam machines with the following specifications ;
  - two cylinders
  - +/- 5 cm3 (example bore 12 x stroke 12 mm)
  - cylindrical valves in order to manage speed and reverse with only one servo


In France, we have famous manufacturers but they are expensive and I would like experiencing other possibilities at reasonable price, as it will be doubled.
Pictures to illustrate my wording without any commercial purpose and pictures found on the net.


(Side valve + Stephenson reverse)









If you have any idea, thank you in advance.

[aeronut]

Bonjour!


It might be more economical to fit one, slightly larger, steam engine and arrange it to drive both propellers. Perhaps a Stuart Turner Double-ten would work? It's a fairly popular engine and ought to be powerful enough for your tug. If you really must have two engines, then a pair of TVR1A's should do the trick and are quite reasonably priced.

[rhavrane]

Bonjour aeronut,

I do agree with you, the TVR1A, also well known in France, is a very good and cheap steam machine. Do you know the Anteo 25 kilos tug ?

This tug was originally equipped with two 3 cm3, I wish I would keep the spirit of the boat. Based on the diameter of the propellers, I can install two 70 mm 4 blades ==> I do not need more than 5 cm3, which is already a lot==> I can install a smaller boiler with a smaller burner, even if I think about a boiler feed pump to save autonomy because heavy boats are no funny to manage, especially alone.

Besides this, it is quite funny to ride two independant machines as you can see it with my  Fulgerul gunboat which weighs 16 kilos and is equipped with two Anton Quartz 2 cm3 (!) or with Jean-Luc's Cyclone tug which weighs 20 kilos and is equipped with two Anton Jade 3 cm3.

[KNO3]

Have you looked at Regner's oscillating twin engines? They are less expensive.

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Kno3,


No. I am not familiar at all with Regner machines, I have no one and do not remember having seen one around me ==> This is a good idea I am going to explore, thank you !

[frazer heslop]

What about the Stuart Turner  http://www.stuartmodels.com/item/89/stuart-twin-oscillator.
or the larger Blackgates V twin at 9/16x5/8
cheers

[rhavrane]

Bonjour frazer heslop

Thank you for your idea but I have to confess that this model is not nice looking and an osclllating machines does not like pressure over 2-3 bars.
My Aggrip tug wil be abou 20 kilos and I I wish he will push an pull like a real one 
This is why I would prefer an Anton like one. I tried to find Regner machines, but I do not speak a german word and can't find any machine on their site...

[frazer heslop]

Hi,
http://www.regner-dampftechnik.de/echtdampf/dampfmaschinen.php#
Hope this is of some use

[rhavrane]

Re bonjour,


Thank you, I found this link but it goes nowhere ???  Did you find their models ?

[southsteyne2]

You may need twin boilers to keep steam up to the engines has been done before and works well and you can then use twin tvra engines
cheers
John

[rhavrane]

Bonjour John,
Hopefully, I just need a large boiler like in my Fulgerul https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jombigGCM8 and the TVR1A is a too big 8,5 cm3 with a Hackworth reverse which is difficult to manage.
I am not in a hurry, and I amso try to find ideas on the chinese side...

[frazer heslop]

Hi, the link takes me to the page with the larger twin cylinder engine. Its at the bottom of the page
If you click on customer help(kundenservice) a pdf is available.
Some boat info canbe found under Schiffsmodellbau
My German is very poor so Im struggling to find my way around the site and google translation is a little poor.
I believe they now have a UK distributor?
cheers
frazer

[xrad]

As mentioned, the TVR1abb is a good choice.  I have one and it easily turns 80mm 4 blade at medium revolutions at 30-40 psi. Plus the kit is fun to build.  I did not like the aluminum parts or that it is hard to get in touch with seller. But it has run well for several years.  As with most steam engines, mine runs a bit better in one direction than the other. I just make this the forward direction! :)


http://grahamind.com/store/page1.html 

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Xrad,

I fully agree with you, the TVR1A is a good machine, a French club named "Hippocampe" has bought more than ten of them for its steam members, and there is even now a V2 with bearings.

But the boat I wish restoring was equipped with 2 x 2,5 cm3 ==> this is why I would like to go up to 2 x 5 cm3 max, 2 x 8,5 cm3 with a Hackworth reverse which are too large and difficult to manage.

[xrad]

I understand you. But these are narrow engines with inverted cylinders, vs oscillating engine which are wider. yes, Tvr1a is more difficult to operate. You could use one tvr1a running through gearbox to run both shafts, but will not be twin like original.

There are several small oscillating engines at reasonable prices. these could be staggered in hull.....

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Xrad,
My quest : 2 x bi cylindrical valve 5 cm3 max steam machines. No Stephenson nor 2 servos operated nor oscillating machines.
Current possibilities : Anton Jade or Typhoon TM2 but in its vertical option.


I would like to know if there are yet English manufacturers who build this type of machine ?

[xrad]

I know of no English/usa twin vertical steam engines made without linkage reversing except the oscillating engines.  Jade seems like a great choice if you want to spend the $$. 

I have oscillating engines. some are very nice design. they work well. but not original to your yacht...

Also, you can get x2 Microcosm twin for price of one Anton.....just a thought

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Two-cylinder-steam-engine-/371320840679?hash=item56747261e7

still depends on boiler output.  Do you not want to run both propeller shafts from one engine?

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Xrad,

Nice alternative, but Stephenson side valves ==> 2 servo / machine needed. I am sad to learn that there is no more Maxwell Hemmens or Marten Howles & Baylis manufacturers and Stuart does not build cylindric valves ones.   

I confirm, 2 propellers ==> I wish 2 steam machines 

I already have a 2 machines boat "Fulgerul" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jombigGCM8 but because of the shape of the hull (flat) she slides https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckakDalgPfY

My friend Jean-Luc has a great Cyclone, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvb5cNbmSGM and I would like my Aggrip, almost same size, at least as agile 

[xrad]

do you have a mill/lathe? there is this model:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iuXUQE9k7Y

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Xrad,


Tgank you for yout help. This is what I am looking for but unfortunately, I have no lathe nor mill 

[Engineman]

Hi Raphael,

Let me add a couple of bits from my end :) As you were advised earlier - a couple of TVR1A engines from Graham Industries would be the best and probably the only solution money saving wise - which ideally fits the purpose of steam propulsion for 20 kg steam tug model. These works pretty well at lower pressures while having sufficient power (because of bigger cylinders volume) and torque (stroke is bigger than bore). Thou Hackworth gear is a bit fiddly to control but this is pretty doable while the pricing for the additional couple of servos or even new RC set including all the necessary 'actuators' will be definitely cheaper than any other alternative steam propulsion outfit available on the market (even of Chinese origin).

If you're sticking on the inline twins of 3-4 cc cylinders volume with the only one servo required for control - then the possible list of choice of what was ever produced in the visible past/still in production will look like the following:

- Cotswold Heritage AVON engine – quite rare one, out of production;
- Monahan Steam Models SPARROW engine – very rare one, out of production;
- Anton (Fabrice Bretagne) EMERAUDE engine – out of production;
- Anton (Fabrice Bretagne) JADE engine – available

All of the engines mentioned above are expensive or pretty expensive - where JADE engine probably is the cheapest in the range. Perhaps it may have sense to give a try on one of e-auctions, even such lucky chance to by cheap the stuff like that could be considered like pretty minor.

And the last but least – why not to ask a fellow model engineer to make a couple of engines to your requirements? If you wish – I can check with one of my reputed colleagues whether he is interested to accept such a private order. Not sure that this will be cheaper than a pair of TVR1A’s  but who knows?

Cheers,
Roman

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Roman,

Thank you very much for your interest for my quest. I am sad to learn that all the manufacturers have disappeared, and Fabrice is a personal friend (See my videos about Atlantica stea RC event).

He has castings for one remaining Emaraude, but he is not in a hurry at all to finish it (and I even do not evoke the money question!).

Please note that this tug was equipped with two 2,5 cm3 Jade especially reduced for her.

My 16 kilos Fulgerul is equipped with two 2 cm3 Jade and she runs quite will. With 16 cm3, I fully agree with you, it would run quite well but :
   1 - I would need a very large boiler to have more than 40 minutes of autonomy (mandatory for me for heavy boats)
   2 - A feed pump on one of the machines would unbalance their power
   3 - The TVR1A reverse is fragile and needs 2 servos

This is why my decision is to find two bi  cylindric valve 5 cm3 machines. No oscillating machine. If I do not find any alternative, I will buy Jade or TM2 machines, I can not build, I have no choice because I do not know any friend who would build for me. I am not in a hurry, I have four or five other boats to finish...

If your friend would do that for me, this would be great and we would discuss of this in MP because we have to respect the rules of the forum.

[rhavrane]

Bonjour,
More than 730 days (!) after my last post, I would like to finish this topic. I finally changed my mind and found an original solution to my problem.

A large machine, a REGNER NEPTUN, 11 cm3, a large boiler and... Two gearboxes made by a friend to keep my two propellers independant.

Because of the pandemic, I have not found yet the opportunity to test her on the water, she is too long for my bathtub but I sterted her to validate the installation and renovated her : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMjCdql1xek and https://youtu.be/uwc8M5tsXK8

[derekwarner]

That Regner Neptune engine is a beautificlly classic design Raphel...[I use a 1/2 French adjercitve to describe her]   


She would be very hungry for steam  I believe very long since produced by Regner?...so where did you find her?


However is it a brave man to put his thumb & fingers into a turning propeller? 


regards Derek

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Derek,
Next time, do not hesitate to use 100 % French adjectives 

The Regner machine seems to have been sold until 2017  :
http://www.ietb.fr/Kit-moteur-NEPTUN--REGNER-Vapeur-vive-TRAINS-G-MARQUES-INTERNATIONALES/p/4/1166/6855/

I had the opprortunity to buy it brand new to an old friend who decided to sell all his collecttion and I did not hesitate.

About my fingers in the propellers, I am not brave and had cheched previously that these last were not sharp and the mechine  even if 11 cm3, was running slowly. I am a steam passionnate, not a daredevil