Topic: Cheddar Proteus (Read 13395 times)

derekwarner · « **Reply #25 on:** September 21, 2020, 01:30:26 pm »

All of the technical test data confirms that Buna N, or Nitrile by another name has infinitesimally low values of swell in water, however the simple fact is it does swell over age...compression set is also a fact of life

Industrial grade Nitrile balls are ground to a BS or DIN Tolerance with respect to both roundness and diameter........

Lower grade/cost Nitrile balls are not ground on the diameter [many have a diametrical spew line] so could be more than a few thousandth +/- on diameter and also egg shaped

One would question the cavity diameter design, where a a Nitrile ball that was 0.004" oversized or egg shaped, so as to preclude the free fall or movement of the ball under suction condition & failed to seal/seat ..there is absolutely no need for the ball in this application to seal both on the seat and the OD

The same applies to the gland seal on the pump shaft.........an O-ring [or two

] will suffer from compression set even at low pressures created from the pump pressure or the containment force exerted in the gland housing

The important thing here is you have resolved a rather minor sealing issue

Derek

jpdenver · « **Reply #26 on:** October 05, 2020, 04:09:00 am »

Hello again.
I spent the last month handling the auctions that some of you participated in.
Many thanks from the family. A little over $12K USD was raised.

Now integrating the Proteus I bought into a hull.
I decided to pull the D10 from one of my hulls and fit the Proteus in.
It has the ABC (Automated Boiler Control) so I have some extra plumbing to do.
Here is a rough placement:

KNO3 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 05, 2020, 07:48:04 am »

The Proteus steam plant looks almost small in that boat. How large is it?

jpdenver · « **Reply #28 on:** October 06, 2020, 12:09:31 am »

This is a "Lady Margaret" hull from Kingston Mouldings.
45" long and 12" at the widest point. Gives me lots of open space to work with.
JP

DBS88 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 06, 2020, 10:37:59 am »

Shall watch your progress with this installation with interest, looking forward to seeing it up and running

jpdenver · « **Reply #30 on:** May 02, 2021, 04:25:10 am »

MARTIN - Can you change the subject to just: Cheddar Proteus
Thanks, Jim

Time to resurrect this conversation.

I have spent the last 6 months in the Pleasure Boat forum as I was
building an electric boat for my "winter build" - The Bluebird of Chelsea.

Now that the weather has warmed up and I can get back into my shop
without frostbitten fingers, it is time to startup again.

I brought out the "Greyhounds Revenge" and re-started on the install of the Proteus.

I have not ever used one of the electronic boiler controls, I have only used the BIX-029 from Forest Classics.
In addition I have never used a feed pump successfully. So since the engine came with the full ABC system,
which did both, I figure "no time like the present".

I will add pics as I go, I have some reading to do to get what the original manufacturer had in mind for setup and calibration.

More to come.
Hopefully you might find this interesting.

Regards,Jim

rhavrane · « **Reply #31 on:** May 02, 2021, 07:56:06 am »

Bonjour,
For fun, I have the same hull with a siren which requires pressure : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3di8bgw14EU
And in another boat, the same steam plant but unfortunately, I have nevr been yet able to make the water pump operate, nitrile or metal balls :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpoyLn94_FE

jpdenver · « **Reply #32 on:** May 02, 2021, 09:54:47 pm »

So I pulled the Greyound's Revenge down off the rack and since I did not leave any payment for
the "workshop gnomes" over the winter, she was just like I left her in October.

I decided that I needed to check out and verify the operation of the sensors and get a handle
on how the ABC system was supposed to work.

So I read the manual, and made the connections to the control unit.
I attached the servos w/ valves as well, but just hooked the bypass of the pump
directly to the tank. The gas valve I left un-piped.

Then I fired her up and watched the indicators on the controller to confirm the operation of the sensors.

When the valve on the tank moved, I manually opened the bypass, or closed it depending on the sensor.

The same with the gas. when the set pressure was reached, and the leds changed, I manually closed the valve on the tank a little.
So doing this for about an hour let me know that the sensors worked, and I as time for the next step.

jpdenver · « **Reply #33 on:** May 02, 2021, 10:25:41 pm »

Some explanation on the tanks.

Back when I first built the 'Revenge I planned on trying to incorporate a feed-pump into the craft.

Since the design of the boat was 100% freeform, made-up, no resemblance to reality, I decided to go with
a tank design that added to the feel I was getting from the boat.

When I got the ABC kit with the Proteus, it came with a "water tank sensor" that worked better with a vertical
tank rather than a horizontal one. Since I had a number of "scale" 50 gallon drums, I added one to the mix, and then
adjusted the tank sensor to fit the new tank.

All three tanks are hooked up in "common", in that they all feed a central connection to the inlet on the pump.
There is also an additional piece of tubing at the top of the new tank to the adjacent horizontal one to allow for
faster evening out of the levels.

I only have to use one fill point, and it disperses to all three. Since the final "full" waterline is actually above the inlet port
of the pump I feel the priming of the pump will be less of a hassle.

As always,
Thanks for reading.

Regards to all,
Jim Pope
Hilltop Boatworks
Denver, CO USA

Martin (Admin) · « **Reply #34 on:** May 03, 2021, 10:15:23 pm »

Topic renamed on request

jpdenver · « **Reply #35 on:** May 04, 2021, 03:30:37 am »

Thanks Martin.

So after a study of the manual, I decided I needed to test the
gas valve and see how it behaved. Since the boiler and burner was
already installed, I pulled out a Stuart Burner I had bought some time ago
when I thought I would try my hand at boiler making.

I set it up with the gas valve in line and played with the high and low settings.
On the low side there is a "pilot" valve that is adjustable. The high side is basically
just on and off.

So I fired it up on "high" until the burner got good and warmed up.
Then brought it down to "low" and tweaked the pilot valve to a nice
low setting. I then put a drop of "blue" locktite (the reworkable type)
on the pilot valve to hold it in place.

I realize that the burner on the Proteus Boiler is a bit larger and may operate
slightly differently, but barring a disassembly, I think I have a good chance at
getting close.

Once I finished the tests, I coiled the copper tubing and fit the gas valve to the
Boiler and Gas tank.

As soon as the rain stops and I can get back on my patio, I will fire her up
and see how she runs automatically.

So more to come.

Here are pictures of the flame tests and the final configuration.

Stuw · « **Reply #36 on:** May 05, 2021, 08:07:56 am »

Hi Jim and all those in this section,

This steam power plant looks fantastic! I’ve strayed off the pleasure boat section briefly to see your alternative world over here. However as I haven’t a clue what you folks are talking about and it all looks extremely complicated, I shall retreat again and return to “simple” electric power I think!

Lovely looking power plants and boats!

Stuw

derekwarner · « **Reply #37 on:** May 05, 2021, 10:08:20 am »

Hi Jim....

Un-cluttered

, but not sure which direction the water is being radio controlled? [assumed as open/closed?...as metered flow control would b difficult to achieve with the Double L shaped wire connection between the servo & the water valve?].......

.....

Derek

DBS88 · « **Reply #38 on:** May 05, 2021, 11:45:52 am »

Jim, that's a good steam plant, I have the same boiler and full ABC system that runs fine. You are right to try and achieve self priming for the pump. It will be much better if the water connections from the pump to the boiler are copper rather than silicone, not so important on the suction side if it is self priming. Take great care with the pump if you decide to check the ball valves, make sure that you note the distances the valves are screwed in, use two spanner's so as not to upset the relationship between the locking nut and the distance the valve body is screwed in, since the lift heights of the balls, in particular on the suction side are crucial, they are set to a few thousands of an inch. Do not be tempted to run the engine without having a water supply to the pump, it does not do the ram seals any good.
Re the gas jet holder, the position of the jet into the burner is very important, if you look through the air holes to the burner the jet should be visible, for the recommended jet, the jet should be seen through the holes and should be leaving less then half the hole open to entrain primary air. The distance the burner is placed into the flue is also important. When set up inaccordance with the manufacturers instructions I have found this system to be very good, it should give you many hours of happy steaming.

jpdenver · « **Reply #39 on:** May 05, 2021, 02:59:58 pm »

Stuw,

Thanks for taking a peak at the Steam World. Yes there are as many tubes in steam plants as there are wires in electric ones.
You just need to take care where and how you connect them.

If you remember I blew the sides off the Chimarea by mis-wireing a
pair of batteries. So both worlds have their hazards.

Derek,

Hows life down-under? Am I right to assume that your time on-the-water is coming to an end for the year just as
ours is starting? Or are you lucky enough to have time year-round?

As to your question on the water valve. You do not see from the picture that the routing goes like this:

Feed water:
3 tanks - two side tanks and 1 50 gal drum. all three combine to feed the inlet of the pump. in the picture this is on the
far side of the engine. When full, the water level is just above the inlet on the pump. I am hoping that gravity will provide a little
pressure to aid in priming the pump.

Outlet:
Dual outlets - one with a manual bypass valve - outlet one to the boiler via a check valve.
outlet two goes to the servo valve by the water drum. It comes in the bottom and then out and in the top of the tank.

The servo-valve is on/off and is controlled by the ABC unit via the sensor on the sight-glass. ON - closes the valve forcing the water
to the boiler. The manual bypass valve is wide open when using the ABC.

Use of silicone tubing in the system:
By and large this is temporary. Once I see how she runs, I will replace the longer silicone runs with copper. I will probably keep the shorter
pieces to allow some flexibility (like the link between the top of the drum and the tank next to it.

Because of the way I piped them, the three tanks are "self-leveling" so the water should be drawn down evenly.

By keeping the water level at around the 50-60% level in the boiler,
I hope to reduce the amount of excess water in the exhaust and not overflow the collection tank.
But I have not a clue if that will be the case. So I might have to add another "oil drum" on that side.

I have a little more to do, just to keep Raphael happy I need to add a servo for the whistle.

Then some test runs on the patio as I have yet to run the engine all the way thru the fill cycle to see which lasts
longer - the gas or the water.

Then some more carpentry to enclose the "ugly" electronics.

Thanks for reading -

Jim

jpdenver · « **Reply #40 on:** May 08, 2021, 03:55:16 am »

System Test#1

The boiler was filled about 1/2 way.
The gas tank was filled to the usual - just started to "Splash Back".

The side tanks were filled to capacity, and the oiler filled and sealed.

With everything hooked up and tanks filled, I fired up the burner.
And turned on the stopwatch.
Since the Engine, Boiler and the rest was Old-New-In-Box, I need to break it in.
So lots of oil on moving parts and running at a slow constant speed.

Usually when I fire up a boiler I need to just open the tank valve a crack and then
wait for a couple of minutes before opening it more, this allows the burner to heat up
and gets the flame fully involved. Once opened, the gas valve can go to the pilot position and then back open without blowing out the flame.

Well, on this one it may be that the servo gas valve is not fully open, because it seems that the
flow is not as great as I would expect. The servo does shift from - open to pilot, it seems that "open" could do more.

DBS88 - On your system, does the gas valve seem to reduce pressure even when it is "wide open"?

So I cracked the valve on the tank, lit the flame, and after a minute turned up the valve on the tank
a couple of turns. Got a good heat flow out the chimney, and the boiler started to heat up.

Here is the timing:

4:33 the little anti-syphon ball valve in the steam chamber at the top pops up and stays up.
8:30 Pressure gauge lifts off the peg and approaches 10PSI
10:00 15 PSI - Manually turned the prop and cleared the "hydro-lock"
13:00 30 PSI - Started the engine, running at a "medium speed"
15:00 50 PSI - Boiler valve cutoff lowered the sensor a little.
Ran at about 40PSI continuously Gas valve going on and off
59:00 Stopped the engine. for a check of oil and water levels.

Let cool - 15 minutes or so.

Opened oiler - just about an 1/8 inch of oil on top. The rest was water.
Opened the sludge exhaust tank - FULL.
Checked the water tanks - about 1/2 full.
-----------------------
The Water / Boiler Feed System

This was hard to really get good read on. Right after the boiler started to build a head of steam,
the bubbles started to go up and down the sight glass, and while the bypass valve opened and shut, it was hard to see a smooth up/down flow, too many bubbles.

When I let the boiler cool down, the water was about 1/2 up the sight glass.
about 25% lower than at start. So the pump did not keep up with the use,
but SOME water made it into the boiler, as the water level was down in the feed tanks.

DBS88 - Can it be that the silicone tubing is too flexible and when used on the outlet of the pump just expands and contracts
so the pressure does not get directed against the boiler clack valve?

On another point, I got an 45 minute run time before the exhaust goop tank filled up. So thats a pretty good run,
even if the pump is not working the most efficiently. I guess I could add another exhaust tank to get a longer run
before it fills up, but honestly, the 45 minutes is a pretty good run.
Any ideas or comments from the you folks on the other shore?

Regards,

Jim.

KNO3 · « **Reply #41 on:** May 08, 2021, 02:20:14 pm »

Nice running report!

Silicone tubing on the water feed pipe to the boiler is a bad idea, because it expands when the pump tries to push the water towards the clack valve. Replace it with brass or copper pipe.

A very good remedy against air bubbles in the water gauge is to insert a thin wire inside, for the full length of the glass tube. This helps the bubbles rise and the water gauge will show the true water level. In your case, having the water sensor on the glass tube, you should check that the wire does not upset this sensor. You can experiment with different materials.

DBS88 · « **Reply #42 on:** May 08, 2021, 02:53:36 pm »

Hi, re the silicon pipe on the pressure side of the pump should be replaced with copper so that the pump works efficiently, remember you are trying to overcome the boiler pressure up to 60 psi before you get any water into the boiler. Re the gas tank I crack the gas tank valve enough to light the boiler, then once lit I open the gas tank valve a couple of turns to ensure full flow to the gas jet, which size jet are you using? The sensor controlled gas flow valve is either fully open or at the pilot setting, it does not vary it’s position. I have noticed that the gas tank cools and lowers the gas flow rate reducing burner performance. Whilst I have not timed my boiler getting upto pressure I feel from experience that those times should be faster to achieve pressure, the manufacturer suggests five minutes to reach 60 psi. Hope this helps, Dave

derekwarner · « **Reply #43 on:** May 09, 2021, 01:44:37 am »

....Jim says.....'59:00 Stopped the engine. for a check of oil and water levels.......Opened the sludge exhaust tank - FULL.'

So we see here the run limit is that magic ~~1 hour, as if you continued the de-oiler would have been blowing dirty oily water up & out of the exhaust

Mind you......after 60 minutes you would probably appreciate a well earned cup of tea or coffee

Could you decant the oily water from the de-oiler, then blow down the lubrication water back into the de-oiler, with residual boiler pressure?

Then prepare for another 60 minute re-run, or lunch & go home?

Derek

PS...[sorry, just checked, the lubrication doesn't appear to have a bottom-mounted drain line & valve.........could be a good modification

]

jpdenver · « **Reply #44 on:** May 09, 2021, 03:36:23 am »

Taking all the advice to heart, Started the replacement of the silicone tubing with copper.
At the same time I replaced the exhaust de-oiler with another 50 gal drum.
I also replaced the exhaust tubing with a greater diameter copper tube and
replaced the output black rubber tube as well.

Then I replaced the short feed water piece up to the pump inlet.

Followed by the outlet bypass run to the cutoff valve.
I put a coupling in line to allow for an easy disconnection.

So far so good. I will do the last pieces of silicone when the tanks are empty.

More to come.

Thanks for reading.
Jim

jpdenver · « **Reply #45 on:** May 10, 2021, 03:32:14 am »

So - two more things to look at.
1. The gas valve.
If you look at the first picture, the gas valve is "open" or calling for full gas.
As I said in previous posts, the boiler took a while to get up to steam, and
I thought that perhaps the open position was too "short" if you picture the
lever traveling in an arc, I do not think it went far enough.

Second/third picture - Due to a lack of longer servo arms that fit the gear on the top of the
only servo I had that was small enough to fit on the bracket, I added a piece as an extension.
Then I ran air thru the valve to do a bubble test and make sure that the two final positions would actually work as full-on and pilot.

fourth picture - The reworked valve in position, and working great,
The final "on" may be a little past the point that it needed to be, but
when fired up, the boiler did come up to heat faster.

I did not get a chance to do a full run, as I was in the garage and the
carbon monoxide detector started to complain.

2. Replace last piece of the silicone tubing.
In my "box of scraps and stuff" I found a piece of tubing
that had nuts and cones attached. It was just a little too long,
but since it was already in finished state, I made it work.
Picture five - you can see the final result. Someday I will get better
at bending tubing and making every piece with nice results.

For now, I think that I should design some floor grates to walk on so
the crew doesn't trip over all the tubes running underfoot.

That takes care of all the silicone in the feed water system except for the
last piece AFTER the bypass valve that dumps back into the tank. I think that
I want to see the air bubbles just to be sure that water is moving.

The weekend is over, and I need to do my day job next week, so I might be able
to get on the water next weekend, the weather should be good and the water
level in the local pond is definitely on the rise.
So - Thanks for reading.

Jim

DBS88 · « **Reply #46 on:** May 10, 2021, 07:53:26 am »

Well done that’s great progress. Re the gas valve opening, once you have the pilot set, the valve only needs to open enough so that More gas can flow through the valve than can be passed through the tiny hole in the gas jet. Re positioning of the gas jet from the photo the jet holder looks very high in the burner, the jet itself should be visible through the primary air supply holes, it should be partially blocking the hole with a gap of about 4-5mm between the bottom of the hole and the bottom of the jet. Which size gas jet are you using, if it’s too big and or the settings are not optimised then you will have a bad smell and a carbon monoxide problem. With the settings right the boiler will heat much quicker than your first timings and the carbon monoxide shouldn’t be a problem.

derekwarner · « **Reply #47 on:** May 10, 2021, 09:58:29 am »

Jim......with the greatest respect.........you have a few thousand $ spent between the engine & boiler, then attaching and expecting these to be controlled and be precise

via 20 cents worth of bent wires between components

Replace these bent bits of wire with quality design components for ~~ $20.00, & you will have a platform to start the adjustments for the results you are expecting

Derek

ddmckee54 · « **Reply #48 on:** May 10, 2021, 07:15:28 pm »

I too was wondering about all the bends and kinks in a couple of the push-rods. Then I realized he was probably using these push-rods just to get things running. When he's happy with the operation of the steam plant my bet is he'll re-make them out of the "GOOD STUFF" using these as templates.

Don

jpdenver · « **Reply #49 on:** May 11, 2021, 03:07:57 am »

Don, Derek, Dave -

OK, OK - I'll get rid of the paper clips.

Stopped by the hobby store today and picked up some linkage parts. When I get back home
next weekend I will re-work the linkages. At the time all I had were some clevises that were longer
than the space I needed to span.

Dave,
The jet is an 8. You are probably right in that I am running very rich, too much air. I will reset it lower in the tube.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Really - sometimes the obvious needs to be pointed out.
That's why we all come here right?

More to come this weekend.

Take care, get your shots, wear your masks.

Regards to all,Jim

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Author Topic: Cheddar Proteus (Read 13395 times)