Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: HS93 (RIP) on April 19, 2007, 03:51:33 pm
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well its now running..
Peter
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Model Boats website at www.modelboats.co.uk was relaunched at noon on 19th April. I know that there are a number of members of this Forum who never thought they would see the site back in business - and were expressing doom and gloom about the demise of the site and the magazine. And I am the first to admit that this has taken a lot longer that we would have wished. After the collapse of Highbury House Communications in January last year, it has taken a lot of hard work and investment by Encanta Media and now Magicalia Ltd., to get our titles and our websites back up and running. The magazine is going from strength to strength and we have also recently seen the launch of our plans and book website at www.myhobbystore.com.
Many of you will be aware that I will be retiring on 25th May after 30+ years at the helm of Model Boats. I have tried to keep the magazine at the forefront of model boating during that time and MB has successfully sailed through some seven owners! It will continue and I am sure will develop and prosper with the new Editor, Paul Freshney, and with the backing and expertise of Magicalia Ltd. Just take a look at some of their other websites if you want to gauge the strength and versatility of the company. I would close by thanking all the readers, contributors and loyal supporters - many of whom have become good friends - who have seen Model Boats rise from Model Maker in 1965 - still leading the way after 42 years!
Best regards to all.
John Cundell - Editor Model Boats (until 25th May 2007!)
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John
May I be the first to thank you for your herculean efforts for the hobby, and to wish you a very long and happy retirement? You will be missed.
Kind regards
Dave Milbourn
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Hi John, I cant find a link to Mayhem site and forum from the Model Boats website :( ? How do i put one on there ?
Do you know if all of the old data has been restored ? I don't really want to subscribe so that I can look at the whole site for it ?
Bradders
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Been seen registered unimpressed. >:( >:( >:(
No throught has gone in to the format, layout. don't like it
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I 'll second Dave's comments in all respects. It has always been a pleasure to work with you and you have made a tremendous contribution to our hobby both as Editor and in many other ways.
Retirement is nice - believe me. So enjoy yourself - no more monthly deadlines now!
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It must be one of the most un user friendly to use , you just go around in circles.and no SPEL CHECK
Peter
staying here
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Hi All
Well, Ive just come back from the WINDY, EMPTY, CITY - no disrespect to the guys who designed the new website :( but, I cant see me going there very often. Unless, we keep that one for the 'huffy house' we can go there when we fall out with each other ;D ;D ;D
Its so 'user UNFRIENDLY ... looks so bland... compared to what we are used to' It just makes you appreciate the effort Martin has put into this forum.
so big pat on the back Martin Well done.
All the best John C in your retirement.
aye
john e
bluebird
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Thanks for the info, John, and enjoy your retirement.
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Best wishes to you John, many thanks for your hard work editing Model Boats.
Nice to see the Model Boats site back on line I will stand up and be counted by rejoining the forum.
I don't think the site is bad at all. It may not be perfect but will get better as we help with positive input.
This site is only as good as it is because it has developed over time and Martin has listend to it's users.
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Best wishes to John in his retirement.
Thing is, I just tried to register on there and it says my town dosen't exist and neither does my postcode?
HOW BIZZARR! ??? ???
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Thing is, I just tried to register on there and it says my town dosen't exist and neither does my postcode?
Your reputation precedes you Paul! ;D ;D
Never mind, if you click on "Show Reports" you get my last MB article! Still some teething troubles it seems.
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Thing is, I just tried to register on there and it says my town dosen't exist and neither does my postcode?
Your reputation precedes you Paul! ;D ;D
Never mind, if you click on "Show Reports" you get my last MB article! Still some teething troubles it seems.
That will be inspiring colin.
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Hi All
I had a look at the MB Forum and have come to the conclusion that.
MAYHEM RULES
Regards David
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Hi All
MAYHEM RULES
(http://www.modelltruck.net/images/smilies/ok.gif)
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Just had a look.
Wasn't impressed, hard to find your way about.
All a bit vague.
Sorry all I am staying here.
Richard ;)
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THanks for the 30+ years of effort, John. Have a long and happy retirement.
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Happy retirement John.
I've got most of your books. (I'm sure I'm not the only one) ;D
Welcome to Mayhem. Your contributions here would be priceless.
Cheers...Ken
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happy retirement John
WHAT A LOT OF POO POO MAYHEM RULES OK
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Come on chaps give them a chance.
We are all entitled to our opinions but don't you think it would be more appropriate to post your comments regarding the Model Boats website to the MB feedback forum thus enabling the admin to take on board any ideas for improvements etc?
I best say no more or I will be accused of being a traitor and barred from this site. :-X ;)
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..... true.
::)
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Well I registered and put up a post. :) :)
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:'(
..... true.
::)
Oh well I best prepare for the mayhem press gang to come round and clap me in irons for the rest of the voyage :'(
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Have a happy retirement John, but keep in touch via this forum :)
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John
Presumably you're now fed up of accolades, but (as you paid me many years ago) I, too would like to wish you a happy retirement and hope that you'll be able to join us often on this jolly forum (you can, of course, LOOK at the 'other one' and smirk knowingly).
Thanks for keeping Model Boats, the 'Times' of the model boating world.
Danny (ex "Muti Matters")
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Glad to see that someone else is taking stick (Moderated). Instead of just slagging you off, why don't they try to help? Or is it just an ego thing. Keep trying and hope for constructive comments. (From one who knows). Cheers.
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OK
Here are the facts, this Forum is the best organised, best info, best run, best layout and has the best members so I will say it again.
MAYHEM RULES
So Shoot me.
Regards David
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Glad to see that someone else is taking stick from the pinheads. Instead of just slagging you off, why don't they try to help? Or is it just an ego thing. Keep trying and hope for constructive comments. (From one who knows). Cheers.
Scuse me ??
Have a happy retirement John.
Richard
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For those that are interested, www.modelboats.co.uk is now up and running - those some sections are only available to magazine subscribers.
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...some sections are only available to magazine subscribers.
If this is an attempt to drive subscriptions it could backfire on you.
I am assuming most people subscribe for one of two reasons.
1/ They cannot get a regular copy from a local source
or
2/ Convenience
The fact that I could not see bits of a website would not encourage me to subscribe. It would only annoy me.
If too much of the 'meat' is reserved, then the site content will be very weak.
If this happens people will not visit very often and you have lost the full potential benefit of your marketing tool.
Remember with any website it is about
content - content - content'
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OK
Here are the facts, this Forum is the best organised, best info, best run, best layout and has the best members so I will say it again.
MAYHEM RULES
So Shoot me.
Regards David
And I will say again.
The reason this site is good is it has had time to develop and the admin has listen to the users. All I am trying to say is give the new MB site a chance. Post comments and ideas on the MB Feedback forum.
Despite the low number of posts I have made on this site I was among the first few to sign up to this site and I can recall the teething troubles Martin had. Oh my goodness I have just blaspheemed, oh well off to the brig I go........... ;D
So long and thanks for all the fish........................................... ;D ;D ;D
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I'm pleased to see that MB have got their website up again at last although I can't see an obvious link to the Plans Service marketed from Hobby Store which is what a lot of people will wish to visit. No other links either unlike the Mayhem site.
I don't doubt that the MB Forum will develop in its own way. After all it is bound to be plugged very prominently in the magazine. However I do have my doubts as to the usefulness of another "general" model boating forum as opposed to the specialist interest ones like Paddleducks. While Martin deserves all credit for setting up this forum and responding to user feedback, its real strength lies in the membership. I din't see any real benefit in that membership migrating en masse to the new MB site which is maintained by a commercial company and thus not entirely independent. With two general purpose forums, do you put your posts on both as duplicate entries or do you favour one over the other thus leading to a dilution of content on both and the need for modellers to visit two forums rather than one? Seems like it's similar to the duplication of shows in the same area around the country - not ultimately good for the hobby as the supply exceeds the demand.
Just a thought.
Colin
PS: I suppose you could say that Mayhem is evolving/has evolved into an on line model boat club. All human life is there - plus a few resident aliens. :o
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Hi there shipmates. I have read your "Chit Chat" so went for a look at the new ModelBoats website. I liked what I found and have added it to my listed "ports of call" there is always something for one to find if you look around so I wouldn't knock any site. Mayhem was the first site I joined up with but it is not the only one, nor will it be the last one I join. It's a long way off, ' if I'm spared'.
If we are talking about sources of info, depending on what one is interested in, the Model Shipwright publication is one I favour and have been subscribing for the past 136 issues. You guys are a bit spoilt having access to supplies for all your buildings, out here in the Antipodes often one has to make your own so "its any port in a storm" and all is grist to the mill.
SWMBO and I have a great time reading your patter so you guys keep it up I wouldn't miss it for quids.
Bob Ferguson,
NZ
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OK Dave if you have to go, you have to go :'(
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Strange as it may seem, I agree with your comments Colin, It was nice to read a thought provoking posting rather than the M.......Rools! type.
I do feel MB have missed the boat (ouch... sorry) by leaving it too long before reinstating a web presence and have paid the price. I certainly am not suggesting an en masse migration from this site, I totally agree with your point about a commercial site.
Like Bob, I do subscribe to other related sites and feel people should give MB a chance. I am sure even Martin would agree as good as the Mayhem site is it is not the only one worth reading otherwise we would not have the very useful weblink page would we?
I agree with you Bob, Model Shipwright is the number one Publication. I have well and truly shot me self in the foot now ;)
Anyhow, I must go and laydown all this agreement has taken it's toll ;D
Just seen your post bigfella.
I'm not going anywere unless the Mayhem mob lynch me. I was having a little fun, just my odd sense of humour. Sorry to disappoint anybody.
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I dont know what your all on about, I navigate though
modelwarships
steel navy
model warshipsunderway
modelboats
model mayhem
with out any problems, its you lot that are missing out, its not disloyal to Martin, its called enjoying your modelboats. ;D
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The subs only content is not that great at present, I do wonder if it may be the first steps to an electronic version of the magazine. I have stated this on the MB site without a reply todate.
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Exactly
Well said that man.
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Dave
I am glad that you were joking about leaving because I have read some of your posts and they are always good. So I hope to see you in cyberspace.
Regards David
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As Navigator says, I think that the "subs only" content simply reflects the commercial approach being taken by Magicalia with the likely move to an on line version of Model Boats. That seems like a good thing to me as those people who live abroad would be able to access it as soon as it is published. You can hardly expect Magicalia to put current or recent content on line for free - they do have a business to run! If the Website and its forum revolve primarily around Model Boats content then the whole site will become another useful port of call rather than an undesirable competitor. I suspect that is what will happen anyway. On this site you can freely discuss the content of Marine Modelling International and Model Shipwright etc. (as well as criticise MB!) I suspect such discussions would be less welcome on the MB site!
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Wow a fan!
thanks bigfella
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I used to use Steel Navy and still have email pen pals from it, but I got banned because I stepped in to a thread I wasn't participating in to try and calm down an argument by pointing out life is too short for that sort of childlike bickering and that because someone does something different doesn't make them wrong. Turned out one of the argumentative souls was the board owner. ;D
By then I had found out what i needed to know about US warship references ie CV and DD etc. So it was no huge loss.
Clive
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We started back in 1999 with one modeltruck forum in germany, now we have 5 more! Many of my visitors are visiting the other sites as well, we are a big family. My forum www.modelltruck.net is still growing... so whats the problem being a member of more than one forum?
Don't forget that this site is managed privately, Martin jumped right into it after the "fall" of MB. Martin has no workers in the back, he did this whole alone! Hours of unpaid work. He didn't needed to do this! But hes mayhem, he truly loves modelboating! :)
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I used to use Steel Navy and still have email pen pals from it, but I got banned because I stepped in to a thread I wasn't participating in to try and calm down an argument by pointing out life is too short for that sort of childlike bickering and that because someone does something different doesn't make them wrong. Turned out one of the argumentative souls was the board owner.
Join the club, I got banned over 6 years ago for mentioning MODELWARSHIPS 3 times, they said I was porching members, I have been back there for over 2 years.
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As Navigator says, I think that the "subs only" content simply reflects the commercial approach being taken by Magicalia with the likely move to an on line version of Model Boats. That seems like a good thing to me as those people who live abroad would be able to access it as soon as it is published. You can hardly expect Magicalia to put current or recent content on line for free - they do have a business to run! If the Website and its forum revolve primarily around Model Boats content then the whole site will become another useful port of call rather than an undesirable competitor. I suspect that is what will happen anyway. On this site you can freely discuss the content of Marine Modelling International and Model Shipwright etc. (as well as criticise MB!) I suspect such discussions would be less welcome on the MB site!
user "you mis typed what i sent you for the april issue of model boats online magazine..."
moderator "user you are barred!"
Is this the type of moderation that may occur? and more importantly do we want that kind of moderation. here on Mayhem we probably have the balance about right, if it is subscriber only forum, (pay for use) i bet not many people will be lining to sign up
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The forum is not a subsciber only site.
By subscriber they are referring to those who subscribe to the magazine and apply to various articles on the site. A bit daft as the content is only reprints of articles from the paper magazine at present.
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Sorry to ask the obvious, but what problem have you guys got with subscribing? It doesn't cost any more than buying the mag at your local model shop or newsagent and you don't even have to get your sorry butt out of the chair except to pick it up from under the letter-flap.
It's just over three quid a copy, which isn't much more than a decent pint or a G&T. It's YOUR HOBBY!!! Are you scared that SWMBO will query such a large sum as a year's subs coming off your credit card? How do you get the price of kits or paint or fittings past her, then?
Is it some "class" thing i.e. "only the nobs subscribe to magazines; we working folk are expected to put on our clogs and trek thirty miles through driving snow to collect ours; that's assuming they haven't sold the only copy they get each month, because only the nobs would dare to ask the shopkeeper to reserve a copy". Yes - I have heard this sort of drivel and it's just that - stupid.
Life's too short. Pay the subs and spend your time in the workshop instead of WHS. You might even get a nice freebie when you sign up (See this month's MB).
Suit yourselves, but don't shoot yourselves in the foot.
FLJ
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I have posted my thoughts on the MB website.
I cant really see the point of a commercial run site with the economic pressures that generates.
No, I am not a luddite, but in my opinion MB let all of us down when the site was pulled.
I will pop on now and again, but this will stay my premier modelling site.
Commercial companies will only support what they consider commercially viable.
I feel part of this site because I support it by contributing and a small financial donation when this site needed it.
Bob
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No problem with subscribing here FLJ, I am one of those classy chaps, I pay quarterly via direct debit. Does that make me an even bigger nob? :o
;D ;D
Boy am I going to wish I have not said that :-[
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I subscribe to both magazines mainly becauce living where I do it would be a 10 mile roung trip to the news-agents to see if the mag was out; if it wasn't then 10 miles wasted, it also works out cheaper by paying for the year
Cheers
Bobb
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I feel part of this site because I support it by contributing and a small financial donation when this site needed it
BOB, DO YOU HAVE TO KEEP REMINDING EVERYONE THAT YOU GAVE MARTIN MONEY , its all down to money these days, commercial or not, the more modelboating sites the better, dont get stuck in the MUD.
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Hi All, as per normal, what happens on Mayhem's Forum, we have two topics running on one thread - ;D - one discussing the Model Boats New Forum and one discussing subscribing to model boats magazine. So, first topic first; the new Model Boat forum I personally find hard to navigate around - but I have no doubt, after we have used it a few times it might become easier to use as you become familiar with it - I must admit myself, I prefer the old style layout of the 'old' Model Boats Forum. Its the old saying better the devil you know than the devil you dont (and by hell there are a lot of little devils on here ;D).
Subscribing to Model Boats: Ive subscribed to Model Boats for a few years now and I also used to sub. to Marine modelling. I dropped the Marine Modelling one in favour of the Modelling Boats though cause they tended to duplicate articles. Having said that though, I still rush out every month to go and buy it in case I miss anything.
I am a natural horder of modelling boat magazines (amongst other things). I can go back to when Vic Smeed and John C first took over and the style of magazine then - and in the early days the magazines tended to be (to me anyway) more interesting with a wider variety of topics etc., in there.
aye John E
Bluebird
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First of all our best wishes to john Cundell in his retirement though I doubt he will stay away from Model Boats (the items not the magazines) he has done a lot for this hobby certainly more than most and yes he has been paid for it but it was done with a passion which is all that counts so best wishes for retirement John.
Secondly the new forum and website if we see the bigger picture, yes its commercially run but there again so is the magazine and I am sure everyone on here has found at least one interesting article in the past, I am sure though Mayhem will remain the premier forum and I think it should as we have such an enthusiast/s at the helm Martin and Bradders and we will continue to support it and Martin but lets not forget that positives come from MB on line
1 magazine subscripting is easier and lets face it, its far easier having it delivered than a trip to the WHS in the hope its in stock.
2 the magazine has been around long before the Internet and I am sure there is many non Internets who would miss it and many surfers for that mater if it wasn't around. To stay around it has to move with the times as lets face it maybe all magazines will be on the web in years to come, but lets not forget the plans service it has or had and I trust will be back (I haven't looked at the site yet) I suppose its just a natural progression to put back what was there last time hence the forum.
So whilst I cant see Mayhem losing out in any way whatsoever lets just use whats available on MB, give constructive help only not criticism and enjoy the hobby
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Now that you have all had a look at the new MB website why not compare it to the old site:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050319091108/http://www.modelboats.co.uk/
This is the link to the old site archived in 2005 (just before it became necessery to have an account to access the forum) in my opinion the new forum has much to be desired and is not a patch on what it used to be. :'( :'( :'(
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::)just have a look at the members on line at that time, do you recognise any of the names ;D ;D some of us are never away from these Forums :P :P :P
aye
john e
bluebird
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Well after an absence of 7 years from the hobby I just posted off a subscription form for Model Boats. I can only buy it at WH Smith and that means going to Solihull, Birmingham City Centre or The Fort Shopping Centre near the M6. All of them involve a special journey. As for the forum, well I never managed to get the advice I needed back then, so I won't be bothering with them now. Strangely the information that took two years on Model Boats Forum of asking and never getting a reply, was obtained within two weeks on this forum. Much better class of forum user. :)
Clive :)
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::)just have a look at the members on line at that time, do you recognise any of the names ;D ;D some of us are never away from these Forums :P :P :P
aye
john e
bluebird
Ha, ha, yep I seem to have spotted BlueBird on that list! Also... ChugBug, Colin H and Bob V I seem to recognise! :D :D :D
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I feel part of this site because I support it by contributing and a small financial donation when this site needed it
BOB, DO YOU HAVE TO KEEP REMINDING EVERYONE THAT YOU GAVE MARTIN MONEY , its all down to money these days, commercial or not, the more modelboating sites the better, dont get stuck in the MUD.
Dont Knock Bob Bud theres alot of us feel the same. Plus hes given more helpful advice than most on here.
So we know you didnt donate anything to the running of this site, but if your wallet is as big as your capital letters you can still donate. There is a link on the main menu which says :
Donations to Mayhem upkeep
You will notice that this is not in capital letters and is therefore polite.
Richard
Said me bit.
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Captain Anonymous,
You totally misunderstand my reasons.
The way this forum was incepted, and is still running is because of the membership on this forum.
The fact that we all give our time is the main reason for this forum being so sucessful.
AND
When the forum needed a bit of assistance, this made me fell MORE included.
Not everything is down to cash value my friend, but inclusion within a forum is as the advert says priceless.
Sorry if I was being too subtle for you :)
Bob
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Now Now children behave or somebody may take your toys away ;D ;D
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Still with us then Bob [Young at 6?]
Been using the spell checker I see.
Richard ;)
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Captain Anonymous,
You totally misunderstand my reasons.
The way this forum was incepted, and is still running is because of the membership on this forum.
The fact that we all give our time is the main reason for this forum being so sucessful.
AND
When the forum needed a bit of assistance, this made me fell MORE included.
Not everything is down to cash value my friend, but inclusion within a forum is as the advert says priceless.
Sorry if I was being too subtle for you :)
Bob
Good on you, but you do have to throw it down our throat every so often, when it happened on the site, every one was saying, ive paid up, ive paid up, as if it was a badge, if every one had kept quiet about it Martin would have got my donation.
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Captain Anonymous
If you remember the subject only came up as the link wouldn't work, so I asked if there was a reason why.
That in my only recollection of the subject.
Another point is quite simple, a commercial site is paid for from the company which is paid for by the advertisers.
This does mean that the site cannot be totally impartial.
He who pays the piper and all that, this site is not sponsored in this way as the members do make some donations so this site is not wholly sponsored by commercial funding.
If you require any further advice on commercial funding I will of course be happy to oblige, but think pm would be a more suitable medium for this.
I am of course so glad that you have found a principal that enables you to keep your hands firmly in your pockets when you knew this site was under financial strain, and now publicise it. Even if it meant the demise of this forum.
I assume you are a man of many principles then, as long as they mean you keep your hands deep in your pockets.
As long as it pleases you.
Bob
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I don't think we were trying to blow our own trumpets when we said we'd paid up. We were just expressing our support. solidarity and thanks to Martin and hoping to encourage les autres. Obviously in some cases it didn't work...
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You are wasting your time Bob he's never going to get what you're on about.
No wonder he wants to be anonymous.
Richard ???
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I have reported myself to bradders, this isnt what I want from this forum.
Thats my lot on this subject, for me this thread is now Closed.
Self regulation, wow, I must be finally growing up. :)
Bob
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You are wasting your time Bob he's never going to get what you're on about.
No wonder he wants to be anonymous.
Richard ???
This is one of the problems of this site, you all speculate and think your right, as for keeping my hands in my pocket, ask New Brighton life boat, ask Stevenage Inshore life boat there,s an artical in model boats as to what I raised, in the 24 hr events, also the Flower Class Corvette assocation. you might find out who I am, Martin knows, Martin gave me my name, after I left the site. ;D ;D
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Hi gentlemen, not wishing to spoil the fun, please can we keep this thread on track, it started as a thank you to John Cundell as he will be retiring shortly.
Thanks
Bradders.
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Actually it started as model boats web site is up and running.....
Peter
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Well to get back on track, I agree with a Big Thanks to John Cundell, as he says he has seen out several owners.
My best wishes also go to John Freshney in his new appointment.
Bob
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I may have missed it but the MB site does not have a link to the Plans site so without JC's helpful link at the beginning of this thread many people would not know about it. The links at the bottom don't include it, and oddly enough one I tried did not have a reciprocal link though the website was from the same mould.
On the MB forum subject, I notice they use the registration name as the forum name but one person managed to get a one word 'handle'. Is this just by using first name and space in surname? I'm sure many people would want to use the same name here and there.
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If you want to use the same name enter it in nickname in "your details"
Richard ;)
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Numbers are growing, mayhem members are joining. ;) ;)
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Numbers are growing, mayhem members are joining. ;) ;)
Yes you are right but the web site is bl**dy hard work, and I see their chappie that runs it was having a dig at people who were moaning because it was not as before.
Richard ;)
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A lot of the guys that are on this site was on the old MB site, they have got used to this one now, I remember all the moans when this site first opened.
Vinnie,s got a hard job on his hands to entice you all back and be happy, most want it as it was before, as far as I know he did not run it, but he,s trying his best, you should all give him a chance, its only a week or so. ;) ;)
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I cant remember any moans when this site started - I think we were all very gratefull that Martin took it on !
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I was happy to sign up to the MB site and will look at it regularly but my main site will remain Mayhem.
As Captain A says, Vinnie Branigan is doing his best to get things up and running. It's his job and he is trying to be polite and helpful so give him a break. I hope that the new MB Forum will revolve around the Magazine and its contents which would be a good thing. I have asked if it would be possible to put a searchable index or articles on the site. I know they used to do a paper one but just imagine if you could search for articles going way back by means of keywords - that would be really useful. And they could make money out of sending out the photocopies.
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I was happy to sign up to the MB site and will look at it regularly but my main site will remain Mayhem.
As Captain A says, Vinnie Branigan is doing his best to get things up and running. It's his job and he is trying to be polite and helpful so give him a break.
I'll go along with that, Admiral. The guy certainly works late - I've had an E-Mail from him after 10pm!
FLJ
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I have signed up and had a look too.
This will stay my main forum though, I kinda got used to most on here now, awwwwwwwwww :)
Yes the good the bad and the ugly, I will let you decide who is which. :) :)
Bob
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The good ;)
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the bad ;)
aye
john e
bluebird
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guess that makes me the ugly one
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http://www.ringtones-direct.com/payments.php?content_id=tt_13149&referer=default&resize=1
turn up your volume ;D ;D ;D (dont worry lads you dont have to buy it, just sit and listen) 8) 8)
aye, john e
bluebird
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I might just get that john :)
Bob
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guess that makes me the ugly one
Since you got no Mustang ;D
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The MB site now has the link I suggested to the Plans Service. I wonder if their commercial considerations will allow links to other model boating sites such as Paddleducks and this one to be displayed?
Their Forum seems to have go off to a slowish start. Only to be expected as knowledge that the site is up and running has been "word of mouth" so far. It will probably liven up once it has been plugged in the magazine.
Judging by a comment of Vinnie's there don't seem to be any immediate proposals to re establish on line selling of hulls etc.