Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length.

[Mark T]

Time to start another build 


This time I'm going to try my hand at a fully framed build as I like a bit of carpentry.  I've chosen Ancre's "Le Rochefort" monograph for this build for a few reasons.


It would be easy to make my first POF build a 3 level; first class ship of the line bristling with cannon but I know my limits. 
So this vessel is a 16th century working yacht that supplied the war ships with powder.  Her build is very detailed for its work such as as fully fitted deck, water tight hatches and a floor above the keelson to keep the powder dry.  I'll try and elaborate on this sort of thing as the build moves forward.


The monograph comes with 13 fully detailed drawings so there's no drawing or lofting for me to do.  I would find this very tedious and its not my thing so its great to have it already done.  You also get a book that contains the history of the vessel and a building guide.





The drawings are quite Franky astounding in quality and so detailed they include things like the bevelling of the frames











So what does Le Rochefort look like?  She's a single masted vessel which weighed in at about 90 tons.  She was designed by Hubert Penevert and built in France at Rochefort in 1787.  She is the third known vessel built around this time bearing this name.





And fortunately for me the kit turned up OK .  I have had to guess the amount of wood required to complete her but I estimate 8 planks of wood 


This Costello boxwood is just beautiful and the cost of the monograph and the wood is about that of a decent model kit





Its going to be a long build as I'm making everything this time but I'll update it as and when I can


Cheers Mark 

[david48]

Hi Mark
Now I see why the saw had to go back ,I hope the turn round is quick ,what band saw have you. If you make a job of this as you did the last  it will be all ok.  Happy building ,have some sort of Christmas its all a bit strange more so for you down there ,where we live finding six people is a challenge.
Merry Christmas to you both .


David

[SteamboatPhil]

I will once again be watching with great interest, and again being jealous of your great woodworking skills 

[Mark T]

Hi Mark
Now I see why the saw had to go back ,I hope the turn round is quick ,what band saw have you. If you make a job of this as you did the last  it will be all ok.  Happy building ,have some sort of Christmas its all a bit strange more so for you down there ,where we live finding six people is a challenge.
Merry Christmas to you both .


David

Hi David great to hear from you mate - I have a proxxon band saw which I reckon is more than adequate for this job.  But your are right I hope I get my table saw back quickly as I feel like my best mate is missing in action.  BTW how's your Ham exams going???  Have a great Xmas Bud :)

I will once again be watching with great interest, and again being jealous of your great woodworking skills 

Hi Phil and thanks :). I'm very unsure how far I'm going to get with this one but I'm going to give it a go.  Its something that I've always wanted to do.....so lets try.  If it doesn't work out I'm going to build the most powerful Riva that has ever graced this planet 

[Mark T]

Right its time to get started 


I've never looked at proper ships plans before and I must admit they are confusing and very daunting.  There is so much detail its difficult to know where to start so I'm going to do what I've always done.  I'm going to break this build down into manageable chunks and start with something that I think I can do.


There are 32 frames that need to be made not including the hawse or stern timbers     Some look easier than others so I have chosen the forward frames numbered 15 through to frame 4.  They are I guess what we would call standard frames that don't have riser blocks or pillows as I think they are called.


Here's a picture of frame 8 - Its made up of 10 pieces and two halves.  One half sits on the floor of the rising wood and the other sits on the half floor.  I'll try and explain this as I go along as I'm learning too





So I took 2 photocopies of each frame and coloured them in so that I can tell which frame belongs to which half





Next was the wood for the frames.  I took a plank and cut it into 3 equal lengths to make it more manageable.  The width of the wood is listed in the plans under a thing called "the scantlings".  Old world speak for list of ships timber sizes     The original frames were 189mm wide so divided by 24 for my scale, the wood needs to be 7.875mm wide.  From the supplier the wood was 8.36mm wide





So I ran each piece through a thickness sander to bring it down.  I left a bit on for final sanding





I next cut out all of the frame parts and used a Pritt stick to glue them onto the wood.  I'm making 11 frames here so there are 110 parts 





Yellow is for the floor and red for the half floor sides.  I've now got to get these cut out on the band saw and then sand down to the outside edge.  Its going to take a while so I'll update as and when I can


Cheers Mark 

[radiojoe]

Hi Mark, Just found your build, this is going to be such an interesting build, I do like it when the build method is similar to the real thing, there are some beautiful shapes in that hull is it to be static or sailing version, I've never built a static yet but if I were to I think this one would be the one I'd choose, I'll follow with interest.   




Joe.

[tghsmith]

following along,, what scale and completed size.. ln a few months I will be starting the hull for a 1/6th scale 30ft launch, the construction methods are very close,

[Mark T]

Hi Mark, Just found your build, this is going to be such an interesting build, I do like it when the build method is similar to the real thing, there are some beautiful shapes in that hull is it to be static or sailing version, I've never built a static yet but if I were to I think this one would be the one I'd choose, I'll follow with interest.   




Joe.

Hi Joe good to hear from you     This going to be a static build and I decided that I wanted to build it to as close to the original as possible.  The plans are so detailed they are fantastic - even things like each section of each frame requires 3 iron bolts and it even gives you the original size of the bolts used.  I did a lot of research before choosing this vessel and its apparently classed as quite an easy build     I would say that from what I've done so far its very easy to get it all wrong. I'm on a learning journey yet again buts thats the fun part 

following along,, what scale and completed size.. ln a few months I will be starting the hull for a 1/6th scale 30ft launch, the construction methods are very close,

Hi    - The scale is 1/24th but they supply plans for this boat in 1/36th and 1/48th should you choose.  I prefer to build slightly bigger as I find that I can get more detail in.  The finished size is roughly the size of my Anteo tug being about 900mm long without the bowsprit which I think takes it too 1100mm I think?

[mrzippy]

Wow you are a braver man than me Mark, this is going to be an epic build !
can I ask where you buy the nice boxwood - Timberline?

regards Paul

[DBS88]

Mark will enjoy watching your progress with this new build. If you do not already have them there are a couple of books that might interest you by Harold Underhill - Plank On Frame Models Vol 1 and Vol 2. He too was a fan of using Box Wood and Pear. The two books are a description of how he built the brigantine Leon, from the use of plans through to mounting it in a glass case.  He reused old timber, he even bought box wood rulers, he would offer a new one in exchange for an old one, then use the better quality timber from the old ones for his models. He did all his building on an old beige topped card table, with just hand tools, the level of detail he achieved is just mind boggling. He explains the building up of the hull frames very clearly, even how to make the wood pins he joined each piece with. Anyway, they are an interesting read, they will give you a lot of background info that will make navigating your new project a lot easier.

[Mark T]

Wow you are a braver man than me Mark, this is going to be an epic build !
can I ask where you buy the nice boxwood - Timberline?

regards Paul

Hi Paul and thanks, I'm going to give it a go and we'll see how it turns out.  You are right about Timberline I get all of my wood from there.

Mark will enjoy watching your progress with this new build. If you do not already have them there are a couple of books that might interest you by Harold Underhill - Plank On Frame Models Vol 1 and Vol 2. He too was a fan of using Box Wood and Pear. The two books are a description of how he built the brigantine Leon, from the use of plans through to mounting it in a glass case.  He reused old timber, he even bought box wood rulers, he would offer a new one in exchange for an old one, then use the better quality timber from the old ones for his models. He did all his building on an old beige topped card table, with just hand tools, the level of detail he achieved is just mind boggling. He explains the building up of the hull frames very clearly, even how to make the wood pins he joined each piece with. Anyway, they are an interesting read, they will give you a lot of background info that will make navigating your new project a lot easier.

Hi David - yep I've both of those books and I agree they are very descriptive and have been a good source of research for me.  Harold Underhill built his ships in a stylised way as he preferred things to look even and uniform over the original build as I understand it.  You can still get his plans as I believe his family now sells them. I've been getting ready for this build for a long time but there's nothing like cutting timber which I've been doing all afternoon  - fantastic 

[Seacommander]

Very inspirational,
Great project
Best of luck with it
Mark   

[JimG]

Another good book for showing how this type of building is done is The Colonial Schooner 1763-1775 by Harold M Hahn published 1981. This shows the building of 2 ships and includes scale drawings and the frames with a description of how be builds up the frames in a scale way. Mightbe difficultgetting hold of a copy now though.
Jim

[Mark T]

Hi Seacommander and JimG - Thanks for the encouragement and advise its much appreciated


I've made some progress - Firstly I roughly cut out all of the pieces in the bandsaw





As per my other post regarding my bandsaw I went through two blades doing this.  I'm in no way knocking this little machine, I've just had my monies worth out of it and it has served me well.








Then I had to sand all of the pieces down to size.  To do this I used my bench sander for the outside edges, and a Dremel router table for the inner edges.








I'm sure that many builders would find this very tedious but I really like doing this sort of thing 


So after a couple of days all of the parts have had their first shaping down to the outside line of their templates





I'm sure that some parts will need remaking but thats ok as I've never done this before.  So what have I learnt so far


1.  Be more sparing with the colouring pen as the different colours cause my eyes confusion when sanding down to a line
2.  Be more accurate on the bandsaw to save quite as much sanding
3.  Don't try and sand to the edge with a rough Dremel sanding drum.  Get close and then change to a finer grade


The next step is to get the parts that attach to the rising wood onto the milling machine.  I need to cut the slots that they locate onto and also the slots for the keelson.


Mark 

[radiojoe]

Hi Mark,  as you say to some of us, all the rib pieces could be quite tedious but worth it they go to make a great model even though you don't see them in the finished boat you know they are there and what went into them, I must get me one of those bench sanders not seen them in Lidl for a while and fetching fancy prices on E-bay,  look forward to see all the parts go together, 




Joe

[Mark T]

Hi Joe - I've put a few pieces together and they look ok to the eye.  As I'm not used to looking at drawings like these I'm finding them a bit confusing.  Luckily for me I've just realised that some of the slots are tapered and are indicated by two base datum lines.  I'll get there hopefully - I need to make a piece of the rising wood to glue the floor and half floor timbers together before I can assemble the frames.  Its a lot of work to find out you've done it wrong 


I really cannot recommend these sanders enough - I'm using a 80 grit disc and it flies through wood.  Its got a variable speed motor but best of all its got dust extraction.  I've been sanding away for hours and there is no mess in my room - oh except loads of dirty coffee cups 

[Taranis]

A lovely subject you have chosen    watching and learning 




The proxxon sander is my no.1 tool that sees service many many times a day all year round. If it ever failed I would buy the same again 

[Mark T]

Thanks Andy I'm learning on the job too and I keep on finding things that I've missed.  Luckily my wood supplier has plenty of wood.  I agree with you about the Proxxon sander I too would definitely buy another.


I've begun to mill out the floor and half floor timber - I think the half floor timber is also called a "chock" I'll look into that a bit further





Its quite slow going and I'm having to run the cutter uncomfortably close to the vice.  This is because the vice has a "V" groove on the movable jaw and it tries to tip the piece off of 90 degrees.  I think I need to look for another vice at some point.  Here's where I'm at and I've turned a couple of the floor timbers around as the colour and lines complicate the picture





This is hopefully what I'm aiming for  - this is the 10 parts of frame 5 just laid on the bench.  I can't glue them up until I've made a piece of the rising wood that they sit on.  Only then will I know if all is Ok or I need to scrap them and start again.  Having done a bit of reading I apparently need to avoid creeping errors.  In other words a small mistake at one point becomes a huge problem further down the line.





It looks cool if nothing else 


Mark 

[DBS88]

Mark nice work, thank you for showing the machines in use, it’s useful to see them in action and hear peoples views as to how useful they are. As a thought re the vice and the moving jaw, perhaps a piece of ply or a metal strip placed in front of the moving jaw so that the Vee is covered will work, it will still grip, and in some respects may save some compression or chip mark damage to the parts.

[Mark T]

Thanks David I just hope that these frames turn out OK and thats a very good idea for the vice.  I think I'll glue a sacrificial piece of wood to it and that should solve my problem.  See thats why I love this forum     I do need to somehow make this vice tilt too as I need to make quite a few angled cuts which just moving the clamped piece will not achieve.


I do like showing pieces actually being machined as a picture is worth more than a few words.  The Proxxon MF70 mill is tiny yet accurate.  The spindle speed can achieve 20,000 rpm so you get virtually no tear out or chipping on the wood.  I did think about getting a larger mill but they all have much slower spindle speeds.

[Mark T]

Hi All


I hope that you all had a nice Xmas - even if it was a but quiet for us all.  Next year will be better 


I've done some more on the build and I started by making a piece of the rising wood that the frames sit on.  This is made out of a piece of scrap pear wood that I had, as its not going on the model.  It's just a throw away part that will help me make sure all of the frames are square.  I roughed it out on the bandsaw and finished its dimensions on a thickness sander.  I had to do it this way as I'm still waiting for my table saw to return to me.











As you can see it gets machined up on the mill and the tolerances are very tight.  I ended up with a nice piece of wood - it seems like a lot of work to just be thrown away but its worth the effort





And now for my first two errors 


I had milled all of the rebates on each floor timber to the lines on the plan - but I didn't actually measure them.  When I did I discovered that I had machined every single one too small which is better than being too big.  So each one had to go back on the mill and be fettled but this time checking the dimensions with a vernier.


The second error - never ever get distracted when machining.  I did and when I returned and started milling I had not fully tightened the vice.  The floor timber of frame number 5 was ripped out of the vice and flew across the room.  No damage to me or anything else but the part is now scrap.  I'll remake it next time a make some frames.





So time for some trial fits - I had to remove part of the template on the floor timber as its an exact fit on the rising floor and the paper prevented it from fitting correctly.





Then I tried the half floor timber (Chock) first which fitted very nicely





And then placed the floor timber behind it - This timber has a smaller rebate that goes lower towards the keel





Frames 8 and 9 next to each other and the slot in the top of the chock is where the keelson locks in to secure all of the frames








And lastly just a quick picture of how the floor timbers look from underneath which show how they step lock onto the rising wood





So tomorrow I'll hopefully glue all of the first few floor timbers together with the exception of frame 5 and then get the rest of these frames assembled.  IF 50% come out ok and 50% need to be remade I'll be happy with that.  I'm learning on the job 


Cheers Mark

[radiojoe]

Hi Mark, geez that is such a complex build, it must be so gratifying seeing how the bits go together, very interesting mate. 




Joe

[Mark T]

Hi Joe - it is really nice when things click together but you're right its complex to compared to what I've done before........the plans are hard to read for me but thats a lack of practice.  I'm sure things will get easier for me - I must say though I'm loving the challenge so far     These frames need a lot of fairing before they are finished.  They also need 3 bolts per joint on both sides which I hope to do with ebony wood and also rebates for joining pieces and limber slots     Now I've written it I think I need a whiskey 

[derekwarner]

Hullo Mark...that baby Proxxon Miller will have paid for itself a thousand times over [or more] in this build 


Knowing that each subframe pivots on 2 points, did you use any semi automated method to attain the horizontal requirement ...then tighten [with 2 hands]  , or just a small spirit level?


Looking forward to the continuing build in 2021


Derek

[Mark T]

Hi Derek - I'm glad your enjoying the build     These photo's really exaggerate the size of these pieces.  To get them level I just eyeballed them across the top of the vice.  They don't need to be clamped to tightly as the cutter goes through this hard wood so easily. I tried it virtually loose hence the damage - I was lucky!


I've now started gluing up - firstly the two floor timbers on the jig





As I said before I keep on finding out things just through my lack of experience.  I noticed that the floor timber (the yellow one) sat lower than the chock (the red one).  But every part that I had cut was exactly the same?  So I checked the drawings and they are supposed to be this way.  If I had read the drawings better I would have known this already.  Everyday's a school day for me at the minute.





Next I did another photocopy of the frame and used this as a guide to glue all of the parts together.  I began by butt gluing the yellow side for want of a better description.  I've also had my table saw back from the USA (THANK GOD) and it gave me a nice flat surface to do this on 





Then the red parts of the second layer were glued on and weighted down for a few minutes





And here's a completed frame which I must say is a very very strong structure.








So I'm going to carry on gluing the frames together which is actually quite a quick process and then I need to think about bevelling them inside and out.  I hope this is not too much detail and getting a bit boring - let me know and I'll adjust the posts to suit


Mark