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[tonyH]

Hello All,
I'm working on the details for the next project which is a troopship, converted from a typical large ferry, in WW2. She had the same role in WW1 and I've photo evidence of her being camouflaged in a similar way to Nick Browns railway ferry. As far as I can find, however, in WW2 converted/merchant vessels were grey allover and there are certainly pics of the "Queens" and other liners being just that.I've also seen a very few illustrations of armed merchant cruisers in vague versions, commonly large block panels, of camo although grey allover was a lot more common. So was there an Admiralty Instruction out there?Armament also comes into the question and I assume that "possibly" a few 20mm could be scattered about but since Queen Mary carried 5 twin Bofors, 24 single 20mm, 6 older 3inch AA guns and 4 antiquated 2inch AA rocket launchers, could there have been some form of allocation?I realise and apologise in advance for this all being a bit vague but any scraps of guidance would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Tony

[Akira]

From what I have seen, over all grey, be it Haze, Dark , Admiralty or other, seems to appear most often on transports. Some US transports, especially in the Pacific, wore camouflage measures, as they were referred to. Weapons were entirely hit or miss. Space and strength of the deck seems to have dictated what an individual ship carried. Photographs are indispensable in determining individual load outs.

[raflaunches]

I remember reading a book in the Falklands during my tour there (12years ago!!!) about Merchant Ships that were given weapons.
The allocation of defensive weapons and offensive ones to AMC (Armed Merchant Cruisers) were the only ones mentioned as the ships were partially paid for by the Admiralty to have strengthened areas to support guns of various calibre, main ships mentioned were troop carriers and pre-mentioned AMCs which had 4” and 6” guns in storage in preparation for war purposes. Ships such as Jervis Bay, Rawalpindi and Carpathia had these weapons allocated to them to allow rapid conversion to AMCs.
Camouflage and dazzle seems to be up to the captain of the ship in question in civilian service.

[tonyH]

OK, what I've found so-far is that colour could be dark grey hulls with lighter upperworks, medium grey all over, pre war colours, often black hull and buff upperworks, even in this late '41 convoy, sometimes with white funnels to blend in with the sky! Ensign, when flown, either Board of Trade or Red Duster.Armed Merchant Cruisers sometimes were camouflaged green tones!!!!Weaponry TBA

[dodes]

Talking of manning for AMC's, the crew would sign a form the number of I have forgotten, but what it did was virtually made the crew R N , but the master became the first lieutenant who with his knowledge of the crew and vessel would assist the appointed R.N. Captain. Though I think the the crew did not get much choice but they effectively came under Royal Navy regulations and discipline.

[Jonty]

As regards paint shades, see:
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=57499.0

[tonyH]

Thanks Jonty. I should think that harbour craft would have more chance of getting their hands on "proper" colours and the rules would be interpreted more flexibly, shall we say, by masters/owners of bigger ships.
She operated offshore at Dunkirk and Cherbourg and the other uplifts so I'll be searching through contemporary photos,films etc. and I'm off to Scapa in a couple of weeks to trawl through the museums and the Orkney archives in Kirkwall for a few days, since it's the last place she was in one piece. The pics tell the story and one of them indicates colour/shade.
As far as armament is concerned, she was carrying several 3.7" AA guns, but they were just being shipped along with 182 and 196 Batteries RA but the report mentions her being armed. With what, I don't know but probably 20mm.
Cheers
Tony

[dodes]

Have just seen a book British Armed Merchant Cruisers 1878 to 1945. On Abe books site from £35 to £45' bit pricey but I thought it might interest you, as an side was your vessel taken over as a troopship, or was she just chartered for the voyage.

[tonyH]

Cheers, AMC's were, in a sense, just a small part of the relationship between the merchant fleet and armaments. This https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/archivesheet71 gives an idea of the size/numbers involved. The particular ship I'm researching served as a troopship and hospital ship in WW1, worked as a ferry out of Harwich or Hull to the continent between the wars and was then re-enlisted on 1st Dec 1939 at Southampton. She then took part to-and-fro between Southampton and Dunkirk, Cherbourg and Le Havre as needed until she was finally bombed between Orkney and Aberdeen in June 1941. She had 2 sister ships that served in WW1 as troopships and hospital ships, TSS Copenhagen was sunk in 1917 while TSS Munich survived, only to be captured in 1940 and used by the wrong side for the rest of WW2. Allegedly, the Germans planned to convert her to a minelayer but the idea was dropped!
I don't know how typical these lifelines are but..........
Tony

[dodes]

I know this story is not in relation to your vessel, but between the southern most point of Rathlin Island and the N. Ireland mainland lies the wreck of the "Glen Douglass". She sank there in about 1916 on a trooping run, she was a ferry in peace time, sunk by a mine at night. I was there with R.N. clearance divers who routinely survey the wreck, with a 20 minute diving time due to strong tidal currents at the the time we were supporting them with R M A S Gnat. The reason was a martini rifle was recovered during the troubles which was in immaculate condition, at first it was thought to be stolen from a museum. But on inspection of records it went down with this vessel with several hundred others, the rifle like the others were only greased and wrapped in grease proof paper in a large wooden box with others. Then we went to work on the wreck of H M S Drake sunk in the southern bay of Rathlin Island after being torpedoed. The IRA were diving on her to collect box's of Cordite to make fire bombs, the Chief diver took a piece of cordite fresh from the wreck and touched it with his cigarette
where upon it immediately started to burn. I hope this story is of interest their are some comical stories attached to this story but that can wait until another day. 

[tonyH]

Obviously a rather dodgy place to sink! I get the feeling that, taking "pukka" warships out of the equation, there are loads of decent, and often the saddest, tales about the men and ships that fell into the group, armed merchant cruisers, troopships, hospital ships etc. that were at the front of the front, merchant, line along with oilers and ammo ships. Captain Fogarty Fagan and the Jervis Bay in only one but a bl**dy good starter!

[Colin Bishop]

There is a stirring poem about the loss of the AMC Jervis Bay, Lord they were Men indeed!

Thirty eight ships with food for you,
Thirty eight ships that must get through
Atlantic calm and the dusk of day
And a shell screamed over the Jervis Bay

Thirty eight ships full steam ahead
Off with their precious cargoes sped
But over to where the warship lay
Guns ablaze went the Jervis Bay

This was the end, her Captain knew
Fegan knew it and all her crew
Buying minutes with lives to pay
Lord they were men on the Jervis Bay

Pounded, shattered, smashed and lame
Fighting on with decks aflame
She sank with the sun at the death of day
And a gun still spoke from the Jervis Bay

Thirty eight ships with food for you
Thirty four ships came safely through
But the finest ships that docked that day
Were the Beaverford and, the Jervis Bay

    By: Dick Dewsknap, HMS Shropshire, 1940.

[tonyH]

Thanks Colin!

[dodes]

I found this pic in a book of mine, it shows a Isle of Man ferry in use as a troop vessel

[tonyH]

Thanks to the photo from dodes, the odds on mid-grey allover is pretty well a dead cert. The next bit is a bit more complicated. TSS Archangel was requisitioned at the end of 1939 and served until lost in 1941 so would she continue her log books through from her peacetime life or would she start a new, Royal Navy issue one. Bearing in mind that she wasn't sunk, where would her logs end up? Dept of Trade, Admiralty or ?.The reason for the question is I'm trying to find out what weaponry she carried and who fired the guns? Contemporary reports include (1) "starboard gun" and (2) "fired off a couple of belts" while gunners could have been Royal Artillery from the Light Machine Gun Section RA or the Maritime A/A Regiment RA because the unit name changed early in 1941, so only a few months before she was bombed (16/5/41). She may, of course, have had naval gunners but I have my doubts from the Liverpool Museum notes in an earlier post.
I'm in touch with the Royal Artillery Museum archives anyway. They're very helpful and may be able to shed more light.
So I'm off to Glasgow on Wednesday to sort out the builders plans for the model and I reckon it'll take plenty of time to get anywhere near to needing answers but if anyone has any bright ideas........................
Cheers
Tony
 

[tonyH]

Still the search goes on! I've raided the Glasgow Uni Archives for the plans for Archangel, loads of photos of the detail bits and just waiting for the large scans. I also spent a day in Orkney Archives in Kirkwall and discovered, in "The Blast" which was the wartime newssheet, that out of 65 Regiment RA, 181 and 183 Batteries were good at soccer and 182, my dads, was ....... There was, of course, no mention I could find of the loss of the ship. Couldn't get to Scapa Flow museum at Lyness because all the small ferries had been cancelled due to the storm so no access to their archives. Luckily the Scapa distillery, my favourite, along with the Orkney gin distillery, for SWMBO, helped........just a little bit I need now to find where and if any of the logbooks reside and also whether there is any documentation on the refit carried out in Clydebank, possibly at John Brown since they built her in 1910. In the meantime the best illustration of what could be a valid armament fit is in this photo of the troopship Amsterdam, also an LNER ferry but built some 20 years later. Dave (dodes) snagged this one out of the ether and I'm very grateful to him for the first decent pic I've seen. A gun-tub aft of the after funnel, probably 20mm, and smaller pointy bits at 45 degrees skyward elsewhere.
Cheers
Tony